Topic: Westbury to buy car parks for £1

[Mike Hawkins]

http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/9205994.Let_us_buy_car_parks_for___1/

A non-starter, and I am surprised that two experienced town councillors (one of which is also a Unitary Councillor) are giving the electorate any hope that this will happen.

1. The car parks are not losing Wiltshire Council money. The £500,000 shortfall is the estimate of that which is below the revenue they hope to raise county wide.

2. If they did sell the car parks for such a derisory sum, the revenue reduction would result in cuts having to be made to other services.

3. It is stated that this £1 is the starting point for negotiations. If I remember rightly, Wiltshire Council wanted the town council to pay £80,000 per year just to maintain free parking for 2 hours in a limited number of spaces ! Why should they sell for a £1?  I personally think you would have to add at least six noughts to this figure depending on how many car parks these two are proposing the town council (and thus the local taxpayers)  to buy. How would Westbury Town Council recover this expenditure plus pay for the normal running of the car parks and future maintenance?

4. Wiltshire Council has certain statutory duties. One of these is the protection of revenues. Therefore any sale of property (or leasing it to others) would be subject to the normal rules on any asset transfer. Perhaps Russell could indicate what these are.

5. When Wiltshire Council proposed that the town and parish councils took over certain functions to run themselves, the car parks were explicitly precluded.

6. Have these councillors already made any enquiries at County Hall as to the feasibility of their suggestion. I think not! Perhaps they should have before going to Press!

7. Both these councillors are, or have been, in business. Would they sell a profitable business for less than its' market value? NO. So why are they trying to give the impression that Wiltshire Council will?

8. The best thing that Councillors can do, in my opinion, is to merely seek from Wiltshire Council the price they would sell one or more of these car parks for. However, I do not believe Wiltshire Council would sell, they would certainly not sell just one car park as the proposed "free" parking in one car park would reduce the revenues they receive from the others they own in the town.

[Al]

It does seem rather peculiar that anyone would think Wiltshire Council would accept a £1 offer, though whilst I do see that the Wiltshire have to look after their bottom line, do they not also have to look after their residents and businesses?

 I know that I don't bother popping into town when I can just go elsewhere to park for free and do more things at once (for instance, I used to pick up prescriptions in town, but now I don't bother I go to Leigh Park 'cos I'm passing there anyway too). I also know of someone who parked at the doctors surgery to pop into town, cos its free there. Cheeky!

This seems like a press/PR stunt to me, to raise the profile of the issue and try to get a better deal for Westbury out of the Unitary Council, which I'm sure we'd all support.

[Mike Hawkins]

I agree Al that Wiltshire Council has duties to many groups, but there is very little, if any, chance of getting a better deal at the moment. Town councillors all fought tooth and nail against the increases in charges and loss of "free" parking (which was not actually free because the town council, and thus the electorate, were funding this). We all stated that Westbury should be at the lowest charge band but we were ignored (again). I know Russell in particular worked very hard on this at County Hall.

Salisbury, which has been fighting car park charges, were particularly incensed that the minimum charge period in their car parks was 2 hours, and fought to have the one hour period reinstated. This has now been done (charge, I believe, is £1.50 for one hour but may be more, and the 2 hour charge has been increased to compensate).

However, the point I was making was that there is no chance the council (Wiltshire) would sell these car parks for a £1 and there is little point asking it to do so, in order to offer "free" parking. Any realistic purchase price would have to reflect the loss of revenue over many years, and the only way the town council could fund this (even if they were allowed to spend this sort of money) is to charge for parking and any "free" time would have to be paid for by increasing charges for other periods.

I also believe it wrong to go to Press, before any homework has been done, and before other town councillors have a chance to debate it, giving the electorate the impression that their proposals are feasible and have any chance of coming to fruition.

[Shizzy]

However, the point I was making was that there is no chance the council (Wiltshire) would sell these car parks for a £1 and there is little point asking it to do so, in order to offer "free" parking. Any realistic purchase price would have to reflect the loss of revenue over many years, and the only way the town council could fund this (even if they were allowed to spend this sort of money) is to charge for parking and any "free" time would have to be paid for by increasing charges for other periods.

Spot on. The idea that WC will sell the car parks to Westbury Town Council for a pittance is laughable. Everything has a price but I am quite confident the town council will not be able to afford what WC ask.

[Mike Hawkins]

Somebody contacted me yesterday regarding this story. Told me it reminded him of a song - "bring on the clowns".  I hope the sensible Westbury Town councillors will treat this idiotic proposal with the contempt it deserves.

If you want Wiltshire Council to reverse its action (they are already promising a review) come up with a sensible, realistic proposal or keep quiet!

Personally, I believe that, with all the current stresses on their lives, Wiltshire Officers and Councillors will welcome these proposals with open arms  - they have not had much to laugh about recently!!

[baldy]

Mike
 
The idea of asking Wiltshire Council to hand over the central car parks for a nominal sum is not such a daft or unrealistic idea as you seem to think.
 
Cllr Tonge, the cabinet member for transport, believes that the car parks are an expensive liability and this is why he was saying that Westbury's car parks cost about £100,000 pa to run. This annual cost includes maintenance, salaries for ticket enforcement officers and the cost of paying business rates (which is a mandatory requirement from the Government).
 
For the town council to take on the liability of running the car parks, we would at least need control of the car parks.
 
There is no way that the town council or anyone else would actually pay more than a nominal sum to take on such a liability ........ unless there was some sort of other angle likely to generate more money, such as re-development potential.  This would be far too complex for the town council to handle, so it's unlikely that the town council could "buy" the sites.
 
It would perhaps be more realistic to talk about a leasing arrangement at a nominal sum where the town council becomes responsible for all the maintenance and running costs .....
 
However, I doubt if the town council will ever find the money to take on such a large commitment anyway ......
 
It would be more realistic to expect the town council to take on the trusteeship and running of the swimming pool once Wiltshire Council gives a deadline for closing down it's ongoing support of the swimming pool.

[charlie finbow]

I agree Russell.   We have been down this road before and were told Car Parking is excluded from the services for Towns to take over.   Lets face it if the Town Centre was to be redeveloped the WC would be sitting on prime real estate worth a lot of money, and vital to a proper redevelopment.   Sadly the public perception of the front page of the WHN is that its done and dusted.   As my old headmaster would have said "do your homework".   It is far more important for the Town to keep the Swimming Pool and the Leighton Sports Complex.   Sadly this notion of buying the Car Parks for £1 is missleading the Public, in my opinion.

[Mike Hawkins]

 
Cllr Tonge, the cabinet member for transport, believes that the car parks are an expensive liability and this is why he was saying that Westbury's car parks cost about £100,000 pa to run. This annual cost includes maintenance, salaries for ticket enforcement officers and the cost of paying business rates (which is a mandatory requirement from the Government).
 

Russell,

Cllr. Tongues estimates are justification to charge more parking fees. You know that as well as anybody.

The actual cost of maintenance is probably relatively small (judging by the amount of work I have seen done over the past 12 years).

The salaries for the enforcement officers should not, in my opinion, be paid for by people who legitimately park. These officers are supposed to be enforcing breaches of parking regulations throughout the town, not just the car parks. With a little effort they could be self-financing.

The payment of business rates is a bit of a "red herring" as local authorities will soon be keeping the business rates and not have to send them to the Exchequer. Therefore they will be paying themselves. (Maybe the extra revenue they will get from the business rates could be used to subsidise public transport and the car park charges could revert to their former level; and maybe they could also reduce the rate paid by smaller businesses to help them during this recession).

The car parks are also raising the money to subsidise bus services (and possibly other services not publicised). If the town council took over the car parks who would make up the losses?

I still believe that there is no way that Wiltshire Council would sell, or even lease, the car parks for a nominal sum.

I hope that Westbury Town Council members throw out this daft proposal on 5th September (if it actually reaches the agenda), do some homework and let the people of Westbury know whether there is any way the town council could control the car parks, what the costs would be and how this would be funded.

"It would perhaps be more realistic to talk about a leasing arrangement at a nominal sum where the town council becomes responsible for all the maintenance and running costs ....."

I think Wiltshire Council would agree to the town council being responsible for all the maintenance and running costs. However, I expect they (Wiltshire Council) would still want to keep the revenues, just like the old West Wiltshire District Council wanted the towns to contribute to the costs of the enforcement officers but they would keep revenues raised by enforcement activities.

C'mon Russell, you have been in politics long enough to know that unless it was to Wiltshire Council's financial benefit, to the cost of the town, there is no way these car parks are leaving the control of the Unitary Authority.


PS: I agree with you about the swimming pool, etc subject to having full costings.

[baldy]

I agree that the cost of annual outgoings attributable to the car parks needs to be closely examined to see what can be cut back, but £100,000 pa is what the current cabinet member insists is the figure for Westbury.
 
Maintenance includes the running of the ticket machine contract and maintaining these machines, plus signage, which is often a major cost when legal fees are added for any notice procedures involved with changing parking fees or layout.
 
The cost of people to attend the car park to check cars and the ticket machines must be included in the analysis.
 
Whilst councils may have the ability to set their own business rates levels in the future, the reality is that this is more likely to push rates up, not down, in a relatively poor area (in terms of low government funding received) like Wiltshire.  Councils will never be able to set different rate levels for different buildings as there will still be one uniform rate multiplier for a whole council area to apply to the rateable value of each property (set by the independent Valuation Office).
 
 
Leaving aside the argument about outgoings details, I share your scepticism about whether WC actually wants to do any deal on any realistic basis.
 
The town council's car parks working group is looking at this matter and will meet soon to discuss the level of ticket prices and the cash flow received by WC since changing the tickets compared to before - assuming that WC actually sends us the right information to look at.
 
The motion being put down by Cllrs Ezra and Mike C-M at the town council is really jumping the gun for the car parks working group. I am in no doubt that Westbury Town Council as a whole will simply want to know what recommendation the car parks working group has ..... as a motion with no real information to go on by itself is not going to go very far (especially as it cannot end up with a referral to the car parks working group as it's on the case anyway already) .......
 
I assume that these 2 councillors are simply expressing their view and making sure that the subject is on the agenda for the next full council. There's no harm done by their splash of publicity for expressing their opinion, not least because it is true that the council should be on the case  (it is anyway though).
 
 
 
 

[Shizzy]

Has no one realised that the cost of charging for the car parks out weighs the income? Just a thought as most of the costs appear to be related to parking charges.

[baldy]

Shizzy
Yes, this is highly relevant.
However, we need to control use of the spaces and charge something as a free for all car park would just be clogged up by residents and shop workers cars and then be of no use to shoppers (like the Market Place used to be).

[Al]

a free for all car park would just be clogged up by residents and shop workers cars and then be of no use to shoppers (like the Market Place used to be).

...and still mostly still is. As are the spaces on the High Street. Yet nothing is done about it. Perhaps effort would be better spent sorting the existing  parking before buying car parks and the like.

[Mike Hawkins]

I agree that the cost of annual outgoings attributable to the car parks needs to be closely examined to see what can be cut back, but £100,000 pa is what the current cabinet member insists is the figure for Westbury.

Leaving aside the argument about outgoings details, I share your scepticism about whether WC actually wants to do any deal on any realistic basis.
 
The town council's car parks working group is looking at this matter and will meet soon to discuss the level of ticket prices and the cash flow received by WC since changing the tickets compared to before - assuming that WC actually sends us the right information to look at.
 
The motion being put down by Cllrs Ezra and Mike C-M at the town council is really jumping the gun for the car parks working group. I am in no doubt that Westbury Town Council as a whole will simply want to know what recommendation the car parks working group has ..... as a motion with no real information to go on by itself is not going to go very far (especially as it cannot end up with a referral to the car parks working group as it's on the case anyway already) .......
 
I assume that these 2 councillors are simply expressing their view and making sure that the subject is on the agenda for the next full council. There's no harm done by their splash of publicity for expressing their opinion, not least because it is true that the council should be on the case  (it is anyway though).

Thanks Russell, we appear to be in agreement. Let's face it, if Wiltshire Council was losing money on the car parks they would have offered them to the towns!!

I also agree that the Town Council should be on the case, but we have been for many years.

I still believe, that these two should NOT have gone to Press with their ideas, particularly as it (the reports based on what they have told the Press) implies that there is a realistic chance of their ideas having any chance. They do not, you know it, they know it, and it is another example of "half - cocked" ideas! Did they discuss this with the car parks committee? I doubt it!

[Debs]

Shizzy
Yes, this is highly relevant.
However, we need to control use of the spaces and charge something as a free for all car park would just be clogged up by residents and shop workers cars and then be of no use to shoppers (like the Market Place used to be).

and still is....   people who live there and work there....

 no shops there to speak of yet i needed to park there in the week last week and was unable to because all the spaces were already taken up at 9 am

[baldy]

A lot depends on whether a church service is on (eg. wedding, funeral, baptism) in All Saints Parish Church.
 
I've seen the Market Place half empty regularly during the week lately.