Author Topic: Do we really care about Brexit  (Read 58929 times)

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Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #690 on: September 27, 2019, 15:54:30 PM »
the longer this goes on the more I believe BoJo is being used as a fall guy or a puppet, or both, by hardliners in the party such as Rees-Mogg and his cronies who are feeding him his lines. They know that the chances of delivering Brexit by the end of next month is very slim and by pushing BoJo to the front he is the one that will take all the flack when it doesn't happen. Of course there is a slim chance that by hook or by crook, probably crook, it will happen. This is BoJo's carrot. He will be hailed as a hero by every right wing extremist and go down in history as the PM who led the country out of the shackles of Europe.

Of course if and when he fails to do that, his friends will start sticking knives in him. Then they will look for another puppet - if they are still in government by then of course.

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Offline Pete

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #691 on: September 27, 2019, 17:32:38 PM »
Oh, the irony...

"BORIS JOHNSON is reportedly considering using the supremacy of European law over UK legislation to take Britain out of the EU without a deal."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1183330/Brexit-news-Boris-Johnson-EU-deal-no-deal-Brexit-latest-Juncker


Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #692 on: September 27, 2019, 18:14:17 PM »
He's being manipulated. He doesn't think of these things off his own back. A fall guy!
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Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #693 on: September 29, 2019, 02:55:12 AM »

Updated 29/9/19


I think you must be on your own with this idea.

Boris is clearly the Leader of his party, of this country and of his campaigns and he uses other people as close or not so close advisers to whom he may delegate most if not practically all the work involved, apart from speeches and photo-opportunities.

If he is getting into trouble with his opponents, he is probably succeeding in his political aims at present which is to build up respect from Leave supporters that he is facing the disgusting Remain mob who shamelessly throw up all sorts of nonsense including tantrums and false indignation to try to resist Brexit.

I don't recall Boris ever losing a big vote after a long campaign where he is the leader and lots of angry folk endlessly criticise him.  He clearly thrives on this way of campaigning, including getting the other side to look more and more against the public that supports him.

At the end of several long-running investigations about me back in 2007 at WWDC, when I was exonerated on every allegation by Bill Braid (yet again!), one leading and long-standing district councillor (now my group leader at WC) described me as the local "Boris". TBH, I was flattered but I don't put myself in Boris's league as he really has mastered the art of being offensive and succeeding in climbing the greasy pole of politics at the same time.
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Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #694 on: September 30, 2019, 12:32:51 PM »
Just watched the BBC News channel and saw Ian Duncan-Smith answer a direct question about how Boris would respond to the requirement under the new law (the "Surrender Act") for him to send a letter to the EU asking for yet another extension to Article 50 to continue negotiations for a deal if no withdrawal agreement deal has been achieved by mid-October.  The answer was fascinating.

He said that Boris will definitely not sign it and repeated that Boris is not going to sign it and then he refused to explain how Boris would comply with the law and still not sign it.

It has dawned on me that the only possible answer to this conundrum is that Boris will resign as Prime Minister moments before he is required to sign the letter in order to avoid having to sign it so that he can then blame any other person (ie. a new grand coalition opposition PM - if that actually occurs) who signs it (to carry out the purpose of the "Surrender Act") for being a "Surrender Monkey" or perhaps "Traitor" acting on behalf of the "Surrender Monkeys" or "Traitors" who voted for the "Surrender Act" ... which all then forces a high drama situation where a general election will quickly occur.

I believe that by resigning as PM, it would force the Queen to invite JC MP, as leader of the next largest party, to form a government and become PM. He may fail to be able to do so. In any event, any such next new PM would be highly temporary as a general election is wanted by a clear majority and Boris and his fellow Tory MPs would then vote for one and so will most other MPs, if not all of them.

Boris, as continuing Leader of the Conservative Party, would then be in prime position for a landslide win with help from the Brexit Party which will have to help out or lose its reason for its existence ...

Here is a MailOnline article which seems to agree that Boris would be sacked by the Queen if he refuses to sign the letter. I think he would simply resign first.

Mail Online: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7520285/Dominic-Grieve-claims-Boris-Johnson-SACKED-QUEEN-fails-seek-Brexit-delay.html
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 12:48:05 PM by baldy »
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Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #695 on: September 30, 2019, 14:10:12 PM »
No matter how many times you use the word surrender, you'll still not get into BoJo's league of being a complete tw@t !

There isn't a majority not wanting to leave, just a majority not wanting to leave without a decent deal in place. Even Cummings's mouthpiece has said he would prefer a deal.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 16:17:26 PM by Bob DeBilda »
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Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #696 on: October 01, 2019, 20:26:39 PM »
Not sure whether to smile or blush at that ...

I've been thinking more about what Boris will do on or just before 17 October to get out of being forced to sign the Surrender letter.

Dominic Cummings was interviewed in the street last night and he said that Boris will announce what he will do just before 17 October. Dominic Raab will undertake PMQs tomorrow for Boris, making it clear that Mr Raab is the likely Conservative deputy leader or next person to be PM in a situation where Boris resigns as PM but the Tories are still the largest party. Mr Raab can in theory be a PM whilst not being leader of the Tories.

The rabble of opposition parties cannot organise themselves to pass a motion of no confidence in the Tories ...    but, if ever any other PM was appointed who is not a Tory, the Tories could put down a no confidence motion and might quickly bring down the new PM thus forcing the Queen to call an election if one has not already been called and voted on and agreed.

It is possible that a Mr Raab PM would then also refuse to sign the Surrender letter and so on ....

I see a situation where very quickly the Queen is forced to close parliament and ensure a new election, and this might even prevent Article 50 being extended ... so the EU will be absolutely sick of it all and will simply agree the new deal terms Boris is about to put or they will let us crash out .... they are sick to their gills of it all ....
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:47:05 AM by baldy »
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Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #697 on: October 02, 2019, 09:53:02 AM »


He said that Boris will definitely not sign it and repeated that Boris is not going to sign it and then he refused to explain how Boris would comply with the law and still not sign it.



BoJo being told what to do?


Dominic Cummings was intervewed in the street last night and he said that Boris will announce what he will do just before 17 October. Dominic Raab will undertake PMQs tomorrow for Boris, making it clear that Mr Raab is the likely Conservative deputy leader or next person to be PM in a situation where Boris resigns as PM but the Tories are still the largest party. Mr Raab can in theory be a PM whilst not being leader of the Tories.




BoJo being told what he has to do again?



The rabble of opposition parties cannot organise themselves to pass a motion of no confidence in the Tories ...    but, if ever any other PM was appointed who is not a Tory, the Tories could put down a no confidence motion and might quickly bring down the new PM thus forcing the Queen to call an election if one has not already been called and voted on and agreed.

It is possible that a Mr Raab PM would then also refuse to sign the Surrender letter and so on ....

I see a situation where very quickly the Queen is forced to close parliament and ensure a new election, and this might even prevent Article 50 being extended ... so the EU will be absolutely sick of it all and will simply agree the new deal terms Boris is about to put or they will let us crash out .... they are sick to their gills of it all ....

Are you playing a new game?  = Fantasy politics  ;D
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Offline baldy

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Boris Johnson's Brexit plan - Hungary will veto Article 50 Extension Request
« Reply #698 on: October 04, 2019, 23:34:36 PM »
Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/04/boris-johnson-pins-hopes-hungary-veto-brexit-delay/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em


Boris Johnson hopes Hungary will veto a Brexit extension as the Government said in court that he would comply with the law and request one.
The Benn Act requires the Prime Minister to send a letter to Brussels asking for an extension to Article 50 if he fails to agree a deal by Oct 19.
However, on Friday night, EU sources said senior ministers had reached out to the Hungarian government for assurances it would veto any request for a delay.
An Article 50 extension must be agreed by all 27 other EU leaders.
On Friday night the Prime Minister doubled down on his commitment to leave the EU on Oct 31, saying: “New deal or no deal – but no delay.”
His statement came hours after the Government’s legal team submitted papers to the Scottish Court of Session saying for the first time he would send the letter as stipulated by Parliament.
The Scottish case was brought by campaigners seeking to force Mr Johnson to comply with the Benn Act.
Lord Pentland, the judge ruling on the case, indicated a failure to obey the commitment given to comply with the Benn Act would amount to contempt.
However Steve Baker, chairman of the Eurosceptic European Research Group, on Friday said he was satisfied the documents submitted to the Scottish Court did not stop the UK from leaving the EU on Oct 31.
He said: “All this means is that Government will obey the law. It does not mean we will extend. It does not mean we will stay in the EU beyond Oct 31. We will leave.”
Meanwhile Robert Buckland, the Justice Secretary, attacked the “Brexit-blocking Benn Act”.
Writing for The Telegraph, Mr Buckland said: “We have compromised and we hope the EU will come to the table in that same spirit of compromise.” He added: “The UK public wants to move on from the Brexit bickering.”
On Friday Government sources suggested that the Prime Minister would both comply with the Act while also finding a way around it.
A senior Downing Street source said the Act “only imposes a very specific narrow duty concerning Parliament’s letter requesting a delay – drafted by an unknown subset of MPs and pro-EU campaigners – and which can be interpreted in different ways.
But the Government is not prevented by the Act from doing other things that cause no delay, including other communications, private and public.
People will have to wait to see how this is reconciled.
The Government is making its true position on delay known privately in Europe and this will become public soon.”
Michael Gove was among three senior ministers to hold separate meetings on Thursday with the Hungarian foreign minister.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who is in charge of no-deal preparations, held discussions with Peter Szijjarto and the Hungarian ambassador at the Cabinet Office.
On Friday night a Cabinet minister told The Daily Telegraph a veto was now the “only way to stop the effects of the Benn Act”.
A Government source said Viktor Orbán, Hungary’s prime minister, was the “most sympathetic [EU leader] to our cause.”
However, few in Brussels suggested that Hungary would break ranks with the other member states due to fears of reprisal.
While Mr Orbán’s governing party, Fidesz, has repeatedly clashed with Brussels over its domestic agenda, Hungary remains one of the biggest net recipients of EU funding.
Dominic Grieve, leading efforts in Parliament to stop no-deal, on Friday called the veto plan “very high-risk”, adding that Hungary voting against the bloc would “cause a seismic rift”.
Fearing Mr Johnson could use the veto option, campaigners seeking the Scottish court order asked the judge to also ban the Prime Minister from encouraging European allies to use a veto to torpedo an extension.
Cabinet ministers have previously said another option would be for Mr Johnson to send an accompanying document alongside a request to extend Article 50, setting out Government opposition to a three-month delay, although senior legal experts warned that this would be unlawful, as it would represent an attempt to circumvent the requirements of the Benn Act.
The Government appeared to rule out challenging the Benn Act in court.
One insider claimed on Friday evening that Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, had now shifted to seeking a “political solution”.
Meanwhile, the EU has engaged on Mr Johnson’s backstop proposals and will resume talks on Monday.
An EC spokesman said that it had given the UK its reaction on the proposals and had asked further questions.
But the spokesman added: “Michel Barnier debriefed [EU ambassadors] yesterday, where member states agreed the UK proposals do not provide a basis for concluding an agreement.”
A UK spokesman said: “We have made a significant offer this week. Our proposals represent a fair and reasonable compromise. We want a deal and talks continue on Monday on the basis of our offer.”
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Offline Maxi

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #699 on: October 05, 2019, 14:17:16 PM »
Brexit and the Irish Problem

The Irish Prime Minister Mr Varadkar said there are five ways to avoid a hard border, at least four of which would be acceptable to the Irish Government."
 And four of which have been rejected by the UK Government, which instead has suggested a solution that creates not one but two borders in N. Ireland and adds a referendum once every 4 years in a country which at present does not even have a sitting Parliament in a region which has enjoyed peace for only 20 years. So a referendum every four years on top of the question of identity politics brought back by the imposition of a border against the will of the majority of the Northern Irish (and Irish) populations is not bound to end well.

Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #700 on: October 09, 2019, 09:59:39 AM »
The London Assembly standards investigation, including an extra level by the police into possible criminal aspects, into whether Boris complied with the local government code of conduct whilst he was London Mayor (2008-16) interests me because the code of conduct was the same for all local councillors until 2012 and since then they would have had the same basic requirements.

Every time I hear a Labour Party politician explain the issues, they get the issues wrong because they don't understand the way the code used to or does now work.

Basically, the Mayor and other elected members need to declare on a register their relevant interests such as ownership of property in their authority's area and any shareholdings plus any employment or membership of a relevant executive body such as a trustee so that anyone can see whether any dealings by that elected member might affect their own earnings or financial interests. As far as I can tell, Boris would have declared all his and mention of these declarations is just a red herring.

There is a separate requirement for elected members to declare any registered interests affected and any affected other relevant interests when they are using the power of their office to make a decision as part of their elected role. This means if the elected member themself or their close family or close friends are involved or affected by the decision, this must be declared at the meeting when the decision takes place.  If there is no financial effect, it is just a personal interest. If there is likely to be a financial effect as a result of the decision, this used to be a "prejudicial" interest and is now called a "pecuniary" interest and these definitely need to be declared at the relevant meeting if the member is taking part. A personal interest is also supposed to be declared but it does not stop the member from taking part in or making the decision. Forgetting to declare a personal interest would be a breach of the code but it is a very minor matter and would require an apology to be made.

It seems to me that Boris never took part in any decisions that were actually handled by committees he was not on or were simply handled by senior officers doing their job under the relevant allocation of duties amongst officers at the time.  If so, Boris had no need to make the extra declarations of who his "close friends" are. It would have been up to the officers to ask if he had any declarable interests when he is lobbying for a particular decision that he is not taking himself.

I can't see how an investigation can get anywhere towards an official code breach if the relevant officer chose not to make an issue of it at the time. In my mind are examples of what would happen at Wiltshire Council, whether it is a cabinet member or a backbencher who might be trying to influence a decision to be taken by ofifcers under their proper delegated powers.  What would happen is that whoever is concerned (officer or member) would brief the monitoring officer (usually the chief legal officer / director) who would advise on whether declarations are needed and the monitoring officer would email the member to say what his advice is.  In the case of a member lobbying an officer and not saying that a mistress would benefit, I have to laugh at how the email would be worded to suggest that someone thinks there is a mistress involved if the member is high profile and married ...  and if there is no actual official requirement for a declaration anway ...

Where it is an officer decision and the member is not declaring a prejudicial / pecuniary interest and if no-one raised it with the monitoring officer at the time or soon after, and if there is no clear evidence that a declarable interest (ie. close relationship) existed, I don't see how Boris can be found in breach.  It is effectively unsubstantiated tittle tattle ...

It seems to me that the American former model and pole-dancing (ahem) "entrepreneur", has in the past bragged about her relationship with Boris and the people making these claims are not her friends and its all now hearsay with no hard written evidence.  None of this would stand up in a proper legal hearing ... and Boris definitely has the resources to take the lot straight to a High Court to enforce proper procedures about what "evidence" is relevant and what is not (eg. hearsay by so-called friends or acquaintances from the long past who have no actual written records  that can be proven to be originals written by the relevant people ...).

Even if Boris was himself making a decision, such as letting someone attend a trip, then if that person pays their own way and if there is no actual contract being signed (ie. its just a trip allowing someone to meet or talk to other people etc), this is not actually a "prejudicial or Pecuniary" interest as the trip itself is not involving payment to Boris or his close friend etc.

I don't think Boris would ever have been silly enough to himself decide to give a grant to anyone if the beneficiary was a close friend or relative as he would have known that that would have needed a declaration and by law he must exclude himself from that prejudicial / pecuniary decision. If he breached this, it's a criminal offence ... He obviously did not do this, so the whole story is just a really bad stir by Labourites and other Boris opponents ...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 08:24:29 AM by baldy »
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Offline Maxi

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #701 on: October 20, 2019, 08:50:48 AM »
Three-and-a-half years, two extensions, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, Death of 1 MP   countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement, 66 million Brits losing the will to live and we’re still at square one.
Oh well several more years to come yet with the trade deal with the eu..

« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 08:55:36 AM by Maxi »

Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #702 on: October 20, 2019, 11:32:41 AM »
Three-and-a-half years, two extensions, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, Death of 1 MP   countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement, 66 million Brits losing the will to live and we’re still at square one.
Oh well several more years to come yet with the trade deal with the eu..

Leaving the MP's death at the hands of a nutcase to one side (though I think Oliver Letwin needs a bodyguard from now on ...), it's all the fault of remoaners who have fought to prevent the result of the 2016 referendum being implemented in order to stop Brexit. Most remoaners are disgraceful liars pretending they want delays to help get a better deal but really they think any delay will help lead to a remain position.

In local government, it is an established principle that once a decision is taken that all opponents should stop trying to debate the decision and should help to implement the decision. Council constitutions are written to prevent constant turmoil over the same argument.  Of course, there are always political parties that carry on their campaigns outside the debating chamber.  Normally, however, decisions get taken by a party or coalition with a clear majority so that the council stays relatively calm and stable on key decisions.

The real scandal is that Parliament is failing to implement the decision taken by the public. What was the point of the referendum if not to pass the key decision to the public?
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Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #703 on: Yesterday at 08:28:56 »
So following Saturdays defeat, BoJo is going for another vote today! Keep voting until he gets the answer he wants - quite ironic that!!


Leaving the MP's death at the hands of a nutcase to one side (though I think Oliver Letwin needs a bodyguard from now on ...),


Mmmm, the only MP's I saw needing police protection were Rees-Mogg and Leadsom...
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Offline baldy

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Re: Do we really care about Brexit
« Reply #704 on: Yesterday at 09:41:38 »
That was due to a particular mob at the time.
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