Author Topic: Tumbleweed  (Read 2389 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2018, 18:23:02 PM »
Most people who voted leave did not vote to leave thinking we will get a deal with the EU, nor did they vote to leave thinking things would suddenly become hunky dory overnight. In fact despite having read the government leaflet sent to everyone prior to the referendum which predicted "10yrs of uncertainty" most would have been well aware of the consequences of their vote,  but the majority vote was for leave.
Nonsense and misinformation was presented by both sides, project fear was and still is used by remainers, and the promise of an easy deal and a rosy future was and is predicted by leavers. What was not predicted was the god awful mess this government would make of negotiations and their unpreparedness for the consequences of the referendum result.
However both major political party's promised to recognise the referendum result in their 2017 manifestos and more people voted for them rather than for the Lib Dems and others who supported remain. The Conservatives have failed to achieve an acceptable deal and must now move over and let Labour pick up the pieces, a general election is the logical answer.
The reasons for voting leave have not been addressed, in fact they have not really been considered, many feel that the EU has done little to make their lives better and that it is the EU and it's neo liberal policies that are responsible for how things are today, this is not only true in this country but throughout Europe, France, Greece, Italy, all have their doubts.
Another Europe may be possible but it won't be achieved by the current government or by the EU as currently run, lets get on with it and then we can try to remedy the inequalities created by too many years of austerity under conservative led governments.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 20:48:37 PM by Michael »

Offline baldy

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2018, 08:31:02 AM »
Michael

I can go along with your post up as far as the following: "The Conservatives have failed to achieve an acceptable deal ... ".

The rest about a general election and the need for a Labour Party to be in power is just hard left claptrap and really is totally delusional. There is no way that the Conservative Party or the DUP will take part in supporting a vote for a general election as it would simply label them as insane ...

So, this talk about a general election is just seen as nonsense based on bollocks and it makes the Labour Party look silly when the MPs should be focussing on the need to solve the current problem of sorting the way forward for BREXIT.

As I've said before, I am pretty well disgusted with all MPs for letting everything get into the current shambles of an impasse. Fundamentally, this has arisen because too many MPs have not accepted the referendum result and are determined to try to remain in the EU.

Like everyone else, I don't know how this is going to move forward at all now. But, I am sure there will not be a general election.

So, it seems that the first vote will be on the deal agreed in principle between the EU and Mrs May's government (although it seems the cabinet are not totally happy with it). It appears this will be voted out,

If parliament cannot find a majority to agree any other way forward, we will leave the EU on 29 March without a UK-EU deal onto the normal deal that is available to the whole world - ie. WTO terms.

My real concern is that MPs are so up themselves with their own idea of voting against the EU deal, ignoring the reality that no other deal is possible (because Mrs May simply agreed what the EU was going to stick by anyway) and avoiding a no EU-UK deal, that they will end up voting in effect for no BREXIT and calling for another referendum.

This will split our country into two in a very serious way with people getting more entrenched into opposing positions and getting very angry indeed. I can see that this will lead to serious civil unrest and folk hating MPs so much that there will be more deaths of MPs who are literally shot and blown up in anger ...  for causing all the trouble in the first place by ignoring the result of the referendum in the first place ...

« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 08:33:28 AM by baldy »
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Offline DORIAN

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2018, 10:22:10 AM »
so what is an acceptable deal  as opposed to an unacceptable deal Russ. How on earth can you judge what is or is not a good or bad deal!!! as this is not a dig at you but to all those who express the same as you
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Offline baldy

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2018, 11:32:20 AM »
I'm not holding myself out as an expert on the exact terms we need, but I would expect BREXIT to include the essential basics of being out of ALL EU institutions such the internal market, customs union and European Court of Justice .... although during the withdrawal period these would be OK as a compromise whilst the final deal is negotiated and put in place.

Clearly, we need to be out of the single market to put a stop to the 4 freedoms of movement that go with it, including free movement of people. We have to stop mass unrestricted immigration as it is ruining this country not least via overrunning our services and especially schools and the housing market which are both fully in a crisis due to not enough homes being built and schools struggling with sheer numbers of pupils all over the country ...

We need to be out of the customs union so that we can negotiate our own deals with other countries. However, we ought to negotiate and enter a new customs union with the EU effectively based on tariff-free trade. This should not be difficult as the EU would benefit most as it exports more to us than we export to them. It's really very simple.

As I understand it, the current proposed deal does do all this and get us out of the Common Agricultural Policy and the hated Fisheries Policy. The sticking point is the so-called Backstop which deals with the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland because many MPs believe there is a real danger we could end up stuck in the EU's customs union.  Maybe the PM and the EU will find a form of words to show that this is not intended at all by the EU ....

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Offline DORIAN

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2018, 17:54:04 PM »
the masses that voted for the out ship of brexit may well have had the Farage mentality that immigration was the key. we know only too well we have created a nation of parents that have never worked and their children will never want to work, whilst they see their parents watching 50 inch flat screen TV paid for by you and i.you can only see the thousands that work in our hospitals, Tube stations etc that our lazy sods would not lift a finger to.
so yes immigration is vital for the prosperity of our nation, and indeed controlled immigration is key
like  you i am NOT putting   myself  up as some expert but a realist. that are so the fundamental that a blind man could see
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Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2018, 18:46:41 PM »
the masses that voted for the out ship of brexit may well have had the Farage mentality that immigration was the key. we know only too well we have created a nation of parents that have never worked and their children will never want to work, whilst they see their parents watching 50 inch flat screen TV paid for by you and i.you can only see the thousands that work in our hospitals, Tube stations etc that our lazy sods would not lift a finger to.
so yes immigration is vital for the prosperity of our nation, and indeed controlled immigration is key
like  you i am NOT putting   myself  up as some expert but a realist. that are so the fundamental that a blind man could see
And your source for this right wing reactionary rubbish is, if you believe the governments own pronouncement unemployment is at a record low, so where are these unemployed living the life of Riley?
The simple truth is that a large proportion of benefits currently being paid go to those in work, those whose wage does not give them sufficient money to live on and has to be supplemented by benefits, subsidy paid to employers.
Health workers who have to rely on food banks, and the saddest of all facts, that on Thursday of this week a homeless man, who was in employment, died outside of parliament, while our PM was making fatuous jokes pertaining to pantomime.
This country is where homelessness, food banks, and rough sleepers are seemingly accepted as the norm, please get your head out of the Daily Mail and look around you, even Westbury has it's food banks, homeless, and rough sleepers.
 

Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2018, 07:38:18 AM »
Now back to the relevant discussion and to answer Russel's points, he does at least recognise the abject failure of this government to negotiate a deal acceptable to parliament, a government who seemingly have no ideas on how to do so.
The Chequers deal put forward by Theresa May will never be accepted, and any form of back stop is likely to be rejected by the DUP, who are incidentally in a minority in Northern Ireland when it comes to the leave vote.
There is no  consensus in parliament, it is not going to happen, this is why the only real solution is to go to the country with a GE, letting the people decide who best to continue with the negotiations.
I don't consider the suggestion made in my previous post to be particularly left wing, more old labour as Russel once described me, and we, old labour, are probably in the majority in the Labour Party, that said I do not assume what the outcome of the a GE will be, what I do say is let the electorate decide who can best achieve a satisfactory deal.



 

Offline Maxi

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 08:35:23 AM »
Quote
But, only a tiny proportion of businesses actually import or export anything. The vast majority of businesses will actually be unaffected.

According to EEF, UK manufacturing currently:
•employs 2.6 million people
•contributes 11% of GVA
•accounts for 44% of total exports
•represents 70% of business research and development (R&D)
•provides 13% of business investment

The table below shows how much in Tarrifs Different sectors would cost if we move over to Wto trading
The food industry would be very hard hit.

https://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/


Offline DORIAN

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2018, 09:51:18 AM »
sorrowful for anyone to pass away anywhere. but cheap to accentuate that passing away in front of the Government palace,
I do not read the mail. i listen, i read and make my decision.
I have worked for two charitable institutions but  having done so i do not profess to be an expert on such matters, HOWEVER, i know that there are many people who wish this nomadic style of life, and then of course there are those that have fallen through Drugs, Booze etc

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Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 17:25:20 PM »
sorrowful for anyone to pass away anywhere. but cheap to accentuate that passing away in front of the Government palace,
I do not read the mail. i listen, i read and make my decision.
I have worked for two charitable institutions but  having done so i do not profess to be an expert on such matters, HOWEVER, i know that there are many people who wish this nomadic style of life, and then of course there are those that have fallen through Drugs, Booze etc
So I repeat what's your source, perhaps you liked to give me chapter and verse, where have you heard or read this nonsense?
You seem to be stating facts, but you offer us no confirmation of your statements, who, what, where, when, are you making this up to fit your own political view point?
Try This.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45983897
Or this.  https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/jan2017
Or this.
https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-use-food-banks/
All the facts are out there to support my submission, where are yours?

Offline DORIAN

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2018, 18:07:54 PM »
not Nonsense at all. all you is cut and paste reports from so called reliable information sources that you feel maybe right
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Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2018, 18:26:48 PM »
not Nonsense at all. all you is cut and paste reports from so called reliable information sources that you feel maybe right
It's certainly not cut and paste, it's links to support my posts, where are yours, why not show us similar links to support your views.

Offline DORIAN

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2018, 19:37:52 PM »
because i have no need to, as rhetoric against rhetoric proves nothing, i do not wish to have to prove to you anything other than what i have read, listened to and come to my own personal conclusions. If you have read and digested all the rhetoric  from the brexit issues, who do you believe?
Exactly, one draws on ones own conclusions.... and thank God we Can
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Offline Michael

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2018, 19:47:22 PM »
because i have no need to, as rhetoric against rhetoric proves nothing, i do not wish to have to prove to you anything other than what i have read, listened to and come to my own personal conclusions. If you have read and digested all the rhetoric  from the brexit issues, who do you believe?
Exactly, one draws on ones own conclusions.... and thank God we Can
HELP! 

Offline Bob DeBilda

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Re: Tumbleweed
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2018, 15:29:22 PM »
because i have no need to, as rhetoric against rhetoric proves nothing, i do not wish to have to prove to you anything other than what i have read, listened to and come to my own personal conclusions. If you have read and digested all the rhetoric  from the brexit issues, who do you believe?
Exactly, one draws on ones own conclusions.... and thank God we Can
HELP!

NO!

You made your bed....
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