Westbury Town Forums

The General Boards => In the News => Topic started by: baldy on June 28, 2010, 21:56:11 pm

Title: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on June 28, 2010, 21:56:11 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290323/Minister-apologises-Hillsborough-slur-victims-mother-labels-disgrace.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290323/Minister-apologises-Hillsborough-slur-victims-mother-labels-disgrace.html)
 
 
Oh dear .....
 
But, surely the root of the problem was fans pushing and shoving in the first place.
 
Yes, the Police made stupid decisions about letting far too many fans into a small pen just as the match was about to start which muliplied the problem into a disaster, but if people had not pushed into each other there would have been a big problem but not a terrible disaster.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by oafs pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Mike Hawkins on June 29, 2010, 19:58:07 pm
But it was essential, politically, to blame everybody but those who actually caused the problem.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Al on June 29, 2010, 22:44:41 pm
Looks like your opinions have gotten you into a spot of bother, hey Baldy.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on June 29, 2010, 22:49:36 pm
Today was definitely the hottest day of the year so far, and I don't mean the weather. My Blog took over 500 hits today and most were referrals from the Liverpool FC site.
 
I've had to tighten up all privacy settings ... online ... offline ... everything. I might need a bodyguard as well ...
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on June 29, 2010, 23:10:23 pm
the hillsborough disaster of 1989 was by no means the first time football supporters had encountered problems at this specific ground.
the turnstyles frequently could not cope with the number of people awaiting admittance and inside the ground there were recurrent incidents of crushings at the leppings lane end.

the first recorded incident took place in 1981 during the football association FA  cup semi final fixture between wolerhampton wanderers football club and tottenham hotspur football club , in spite of having a larger than avereage following, spurs supporters were given fewer tickets than the wolves and were also allocated the 10,100 capacity lepping lanesend.
 within minutes of the game starting  a crush developed in the stand and 38 spurs supporters were injured. on this ocassion the polce allowed the affected supporters acces to to the pitch.
following this incident the FA opted to select other venues to host the FA cup semi finals for the next 6 years .
stadium owners , shefield wednesday were promoted to make significant changes to the leppings lane  end.
south yorkshire police suggested a reduction in overall capacity could be distributed equally and evenly across the terrace
lateral fences were errected on the terrace to create five penned areas.
Despite these changes , there was no reassessmant of leppings lane end capacity .
The individual pen capacitywere carved carved from the 10,100 figurethere was niether any system to count the number of fans entering each pen nor any system to warn when a pen had reached its capacity.
new ideas were drafted to resolve these issues but never implemented .
It was not until 1987 , that the problems resurfaced when the FA again chose hillbsborough to host the FA cup semi final
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Sector9 on June 30, 2010, 13:29:10 pm
Oh dear - shouldn't have said that Russell!
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Al on June 30, 2010, 16:25:09 pm
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2010/06/30/wiltshire-councillor-russell-hawker-refuses-to-withdraw-crowd-pushing-assertion-on-hillsborough-disaster-100252-26753856/

What a lovely mug shot :)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: JFT96 on June 30, 2010, 16:35:41 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on June 30, 2010, 16:44:30 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: charlie finbow on June 30, 2010, 19:34:29 pm
I have to say this time Russell has not just stepped over the line, he has jumped over it.   Totally unnecessary, insensitive and downright insulting.   I have a friend who had a cousin lost in this disaster and I know she would happily bite off his gentlemans bits and chew them in front of him.   I'm glad I'm not in Russells shoes at the minute.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on June 30, 2010, 20:06:53 pm
i wonder if baldy has gone into hiding,might be a good idel me thinks :(
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on June 30, 2010, 20:09:27 pm
oh dear russell you dont seem to have made many new friends there have you???

maybe a bit of sensitivity about the subject wouldnt have come amiss... we know youre not know for being sensitive but a lot of people died that day under distressing circumstances, and some may never be the same after witnessing it at first hand.   

i must admit to agreeing with a lot of the comments on the echo's piece about you to be honest.  you even seem to have agrevated a fair amount of westburys own people judging by the posts on there.  There is quite a few liverpool fans in westbury and some with bad reputations as it is....  hope they dont get to hear of you and your comments because you just might need those bodyguards you mentioned

i wonder if baldy has gone into hiding,might be a good idel me thinks :(
probably a good idea
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on June 30, 2010, 20:36:19 pm
Westbury Councillor Russell Hawker Causes Uproar on Twitter

http://www.westburypeople.co.uk/council/Westbury-Councillor-Russell-Hawker-Causes-Uproar/story-5334685-detail/story.html

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=259873.360

Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on June 30, 2010, 20:44:13 pm
omg  thats 10 pages on the liverpool football club site......

he'd better go careful they dont desend on westbury in coach loads
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on June 30, 2010, 21:28:29 pm
Im Afraid it is going to be hitting certain news papers tmoro , the scale of this is somewhat exsplosive ,
today in town  members of the public are savage about this ! I can not defend Russells comments as they are totally alien to my own on this issue , Hillsborough was a complete tragedy .
And to say a few weeks away might be the best thing for russell till it dies down , next week i can say it will crank up even more when the wiltshire times and the white horse news run this story
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on June 30, 2010, 21:31:37 pm
oh dear.... not getting better is it....  im still reading the comments on the redandwhitekop.com forum , the feelings are running very high and quite understandable in the circumstances   
russell you have stirred up a right hornets nest now havent you...???   maybe ur right mike and a holiday away somewhere....abroad maybe certainly NOT up north
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on June 30, 2010, 21:36:31 pm
perhaps a one way ticket,might be in order........................
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on June 30, 2010, 22:50:15 pm
interview live with russell tmoro 8.10am 5live
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on June 30, 2010, 22:59:27 pm
interview live with russell tmoro 8.10am 5live
now wont that be interesting ??   :)  gonna go n see if i got it on my tv in the bed room  :)
one has to wonder if he is going to try n squirm out of the sugare he has found himself in or if he will indeed apologise to all those people who he has hurt and upset and angered ( more the correct word i think)
maybe this is one day he wishes that people werent all entitled to his opinion ...sorry russell along with everyone else i think you have put your huge size 14's into something a bit more than even you can control
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 00:13:25 am
interview live with russell tmoro 8.10am 5live

This is untrue.
 
I gave an interview to BBC Wiltshire Radio today and heard clips about it in the news on air this afternoon and during the "Drive" programme between about 5.30 and 6pm.
 
Apart from finishing a discussion with Western Daily Press early tomorrow morning and also a chat with the new Westbury People web site tomorrow, I'm not doing anything further.
 
 I have not heard of 5 Live.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 01, 2010, 07:52:58 am
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 08:24:22 am
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 08:26:21 am
interview live with russell tmoro 8.10am 5live

 
 I have not heard of 5 Live.

5 live is radio5       
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 01, 2010, 08:34:38 am
just heard the report on the radio wiltshire and radio 5
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 08:36:19 am
after reading the comments on the liverpool supporters forum russell i see that they are all baying for your head on a stick it seams ( so to speak)
do you think this could be the end of of your career politically wise?? by the sound of it they aim to cripple you in that way and have contacted every body they can think of. even coming on both the forums as well.
i did wonder at the ideaof putting full name address and home and mopbile numbers on the infomation about yourselves and other councillors and now i can see i was right to be concerned. looks lilke you will have to change your numbers arent you?



if i see a coach from liverpool arrive here im gonna battenn down the hatches until they have left..
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 08:37:52 am
just heard the report on the radio wiltshire and radio 5

really???   ive only just turned  off  radio 5 aftering being on there for half hour waiting for it and didnt hear anything
wonder how come i missed it!!!

russell said that was untrue
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Al on July 01, 2010, 09:34:32 am
if i see a coach from liverpool arrive here im gonna battenn down the hatches until they have left..
Debs, no need to panic. Liverpudlians are lovely folk and won't cause trouble for the general populous just a specific individual. I'm sure they appreciate that just 'cos we live in the same town, we don't share the same views as Russell.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 09:38:56 am
I think that someone has muddled up what happened.
 
I have had no approach from anyone about any live interview.
 
I believe that someone in Swindon is being interviewed this morning and I suppose he has jumped to the conclusion that the person he wants to talk about (me) would be involved as well. I suppose he has told people the wrong information and now I am being accused of dodging a live interview.
 
I do not think that anything I've said would justify a live interview.
 
I simply made some comments which do not deserve all the publicity they are getting, not least because I do not stand on a national platform and anyone outside my local area really should have no care about my comments as they don't matter ...
 
 
 
As a local councillor, the only people who should care about what I say are local people who choose to take an interest.
 
 
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 09:57:58 am

 
 
 
As a local councillor, the only people who should care about what I say are local people who choose to take an interest.


and of course other people will take an interest if you go public with any comments about what happened to them or their friends and family and in such horriffic circumstances as well.  im quite sure i would be annoyed with coments about my family and friends that i know to be untrue


below is a quote from the liverpool fan forum

Quote
On a sunny April Saturday at about 9.30 my wife, myself and numerous friends, ranging from teenagers to pensioners set of for an F.A Cup semi final in Sheffield.
At 10 in the morning on the following day my wife and myself were tying scarfs onto the Shankly gates in honour of those supporters who had died or were still lying in hospital beds in Sheffield.
Each event in those few short hours is firmly etched in my mind and in the mind of every supporter who witnessed those horrific events unfold. We knew the truth of that day, the inadequate emergency facilities at the ground, the inept policing, the honour and bravery of Liverpool fans who helped to save lives whilst those there to "control" us stood motionless on the halfway line as people lay dying and those "brave" police who told us to shut up and pushed supporters back into the cages.[/
Quote





i would imagine this would make anyone think twice about saying something they know nothing about from personal experiance. THOSE  who were there all saying the same...  footage intself showing the same.....   reading some of this stuff is horrible but has to be done to understand why the liverpool fans have such strong feeling on this matter. i can certainly see why they do and i have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN FOOTBALL whatsoever. imagine watching your family friends and co supporters all laying dying and no one does anything to help.. in my opinion that fencing was a terrible idea. gates should all have been unlocked, fencing taken down so the people could have escaped and not peril. the game, money fights ect could have been sorted out afterwards.

.peoples lives are more important than money any day of the week. ive been in that position my self when ruh put money before my sons life and he died..( yes i know old story  BUT it still happens)  so im with liverpool on this one, they have the right to demand answers and should get them not flannel by a governement trying to cover it up and pass the buck....


my opinion only....deb





having trouble with the quotes this morning... stuff in red is MY opinion only
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Al on July 01, 2010, 10:06:32 am
As a local councillor, the only people who should care about what I say are local people who choose to take an interest.
Fair enough. In that case let me say this:

Russell, this time you have stepped over even your usual line. On an issue that really has nothing to do with you or the people of Westbury, you have managed (rightly or wrongly) to make yourself, and in part Westbury and Wiltshire, look foolish, misguided and downright insensitive. Whilst I am more than happy to defend anyone's right to an opinion (even yours Russell), I do think that has to be measure against how it is said, in what context it will be taken and who it will impact upon. You spoke as a private individual, but given your public  standing it was always likely to be taken more widely and misinterpreted by others (who have known strong feelings). Sadly you appear to have misjudged the entire event and through your actions have caused further upset to people I doubt you ever intended to upset, but who you seem incapable of understanding and resolving the situation with.

You are a good local councillor Russell, please stick with that and what you do to help locally.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 10:19:26 am
http://www.standardsforengland.gov.uk/Guidance/TheCodeofConduct/CodeGuidance/Onlineguides/Quickcodeguides/BloggingQuickGuide/ (http://www.standardsforengland.gov.uk/Guidance/TheCodeofConduct/CodeGuidance/Onlineguides/Quickcodeguides/BloggingQuickGuide/)

Blogging Quick Guide

...

I am fully aware of the Code of Conduct and this guidance.
 
I have not breached any code because all I have done is express views in a general fashion without naming anyone.
 
I have been accused of breaching the code many times as a town and district councillor (ie. before I became a Wiltshire Councillor). I am the most exonerated councillor in Wiltshire in the sense of showing that many false and unfounded claims have been made because most people simply do not realise what the code means and how it works. This is usually not their fault. It's just a daft system where people are encouraged to make complaints but without explaining the need for hard evidence and what evidence is required and what actions by a councillor are actually relevant. 
 
I fully support the fight for Justice for the 96 in the sense that the officials who are primarily to blame for the terrible tragedy should be brought to book.
 
My comments were never aimed at the victims, who I fully support.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 10:39:55 am

You are a good local councillor Russell, please stick with that and what you do to help locally.


Thanks.
 
Fair enough ...
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Rosebud on July 01, 2010, 10:45:09 am
As you said Russell in your first post     Oh dear .....  You have got yourself into a right mess here !!!!
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 10:56:02 am
As you said Russell in your first post     Oh dear ..... You have got yourself into a right mess here !!!!

Blimey Rosebud. We agree on something.
 
I think this will sort itself out actually. I am receiving messages from people who agree with me ... but the key here is to drop the subject.
 
I have apologised for any offence and I support the JFT96 campaign and I am now focussing on my local activities.
 
Any attempt by Liverpool fans to smear me at election time will simply rally my supporters to go out and vote.
 
A lot of  football fans around here don't vote anyway and I think Liverpool fans definitely would not support me anyway as I'm ex-Tory and the good folk of Liverpool really prefer other types of politician eg. Labour. 
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 01, 2010, 11:12:00 am
its on the front page of the western daily press this morning, it will die down soon after a week or so
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on July 01, 2010, 13:27:53 pm
Quote
I simply made some comments which do not deserve all the publicity they are getting, not least because I do not stand on a national platform and anyone outside my local area really should have no care about my comments as they don't matter ...
and you really believe your comments don't deserve publicity,tell that to the victim's family's,you are unbelievable...

Quote
I fully support the fight for Justice for the 96 in the sense that the officials who are primarily to blame for the terrible tragedy should be brought to book.
 
My comments were never aimed at the victims, who I fully support
So your backtracking then baldy,yet more unbelievable comment's.... you should be brought to book,for your terrible comments....

Quote
I think this will sort itself out actually. I am receiving messages from people who agree with me ... but the key here is to drop the subject.
Really,care to post the messages on this forum ? and you wish to drop the subject.
And you hope it will go away.you need to grow a set off balls,yet more arrogance......

Quote
I have apologised for any offence and I support the JF96 campaign and I am now focussing on my local activities
Pity you didn't keep you nose out of other people's business in the first place....

Quote
Any attempt by Liverpool fans to smear me at election time will simply rally my supporters to go out and vote.
 
Yet more arrogance,is it a case of the more crap you come out with,the more you will believe it....

Quote
Most football fans around here don't vote anyway and I think Liverpool fans definitely would not support me anyway as I'm ex-Tory and the good folk of Liverpool really prefer other types of politician eg. Labour.
So now you are trying to squirm your way out off it,to late. unbelievable...

Do the decent and Honorable thing and look for a career change.....


Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on July 01, 2010, 13:40:16 pm
perhap's baldy you like to comment on the email sent to you,it would appear you have gone to ground.....

THIS IS MY EMAIL TO THIS UNINFORMED CRETIN. JUST GOOGLE HIM ON HIS COUNCIL WEBSITE WHERE HIS PHONE NUMBERS ARE IF YOU WANT A QUICKER REPLY ( UNLESS HE HAS GONE TO GROUND )
Do you believe the inquiry findings were wrong ? Do you believe story the Sun ran with ? Do you know The Sun printed an apology admitting the article was wrong but only did so in the Merseyside editions? Do you think the Police were blameless for preventing ambulances from reaching the injured dying and dead ? Do you believe the FA were blameless for not ensuring the Leppings Lane stand had a valid safety certificate ?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 13:41:31 pm
Pat
 
It's safe to assume that I disagree with everything you've said.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on July 01, 2010, 13:45:03 pm
Pat
 
It's safe to assume that I disagree with everything you've said.
it's also safe to assume,your arrogance grows by the day,very very sad....
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 01, 2010, 18:08:10 pm
the wiltshire Times tonight this story is front page following onto the whole of page 2 then goes to page 18 with the papers opinion which calls for russell's resignation
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 18:40:11 pm
the wiltshire Times tonight this story is front page following onto the whole of page 2 then goes to page 18 with the papers opinion which calls for russell's resignation

yes  just been reading it all    :(
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on July 01, 2010, 19:19:51 pm
i see on Tother forum councillor hawker is getting a bit of a slating read below..


Of course I am assuming the stories are prtrayed correctly......

The man is a blithering idiot, an not an expert on anything, let alone this tragic disaster.  An awful lot of people lost an awful lot of people on that day and he should know better and - as my mum used to say - If you havent got anything nice to say then don't say anything.

The phrase "taken out of context" in his reply is astonishing from someone who acts as a politician and who should know, simply, that THE MEANING OF YOUR COMMUNICATION IS THE RESPONSE YOU GET.

I withdraw my vote for him.     Again.

However....I have written down on a piece of paper what I believe his reaction and response will be.  Lets see if I get it right.....

It has to be time to kick him out of Westbury (metaphorically) - the defence that he has done so much for the place falls over when someone else could have done the same and not been such a self serving precocious narcissistic fool.    Actually, many people have, and continue to do so....................

What an absolute idiot he is, he likes to put himself forward as an itelligent man, forward thinking, open minded sort of person.
Well his latest blunder prooves that he is infact quiet the opposite.

A councillor who pigeon-holes football fans as violent, pushy, and non voting is indeed a very narrow minded, backward thinking unintelligent man me thinks.

nuf said !

The mans a Prat !!
And he dissed my girl !!................
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: charlie finbow on July 01, 2010, 20:04:53 pm
I also have read the article, blimey front page news.   My advice to anyone is "its sometimes better to let people think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and prove it beyond doubt".   Russell has proved in the past he can be an effective Town Councillor, however, I cant see him digging his way out of this one.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Debs on July 01, 2010, 20:29:57 pm
, however, I cant see him digging his way out of this one.

i think the same too   [app]
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: pat on July 01, 2010, 20:33:00 pm
i doubt the WT has sold so many copies ever,i noticed there was nothing on the online WT :-\
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Goliath on July 01, 2010, 21:02:13 pm
i doubt the WT has sold so many copies ever,i noticed there was nothing on the online WT :-\

Can you imagine the comments that would appear if this story was on the WT web-site?

As for Russell, well, what can I say, as a Liverpool supporter I find the comments totally abhorrent and suggest he finds a deserted island and emigrates there.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 22:12:39 pm
...
 
 I cant see him digging his way out of this one.
 


Watch me.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 01, 2010, 23:07:18 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 00:36:36 am
The Wiltshire Times opinion
Anyone still haunted by the unfolding horror of the hillsborough disaster in 1989 will be dumbfounded by the ignorant and crass comments made this week by westbury's wiltshire councillor Russell Hawker.

Not only does he insult the memory of those that died he condems  the other fans who were there and are doubtless still blighted by the horrific scenes they witnessed.

Cllr Hawker's ill-informed Twitter comments were bad enough but in an interview with this paper wednseday he was unrepentant and went even further in insulting the families.

I understood that they have lost relatives , but it was 21 years ago'' HE SAID.

How can anyone with so little empathy remain in a postion where he represents his community with dignity?

He should resign immediatley, but anyone who can be so insentive is unlikely to heed such calls.
Wiltshire council , which has been left to clean up the mess he has made by handling and replying to dozens of complaints from all over the country, says it can do nothing because the comments he made were persononal.
He is an Indepentcouncillor and therefor immune to party influence.
But would the council's hierachy stand idly by if his views were racist or sexist ?

Why should attacking a community and in particular 96 grieving families be any different ?

It ought to force a By election to see if the people of Westbury want a man like this representing their town



Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 01:00:23 am
Ive spoken today with Russell he is naturally very shaken by his comments and the degree this outburst he has made .
I as a Wiltshire councillor can not naturally understand were Russell was comming from by saying this abhorent tale with his comments, this is against my very own knowledge from reading some time ago of the book Context and consequences , The Hills borough football disaster .
I remove myself from his outpourings totally and wish to convey my heartfelt apologies to the good people of Liverpool and beyond.

Cllr Mike Cuthbert -Murray Wiltshire councillor for Westbury East
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 02, 2010, 02:48:56 am
Mike
 
I'm not shaken at all. I am very calm about the whole thing. I am confident that this will get straightened out ... though a whole load of people will be well and truly miffed about it along the way.
 
I have been meaning to run a clean-up campiagn for a long time to confront the smear campaigners against me. This whole Hillsborough issue has let several usual suspects come out and also the Wiltshire Times has really crossed the line ... so I may as well deal with the whole lot in one go rather than pussy foot about.  Guns blazing .....
 
I've re-read the Wiltshire Times pieces several times.
 
What they seem to have avoided is recognition that I am entitled to my view. It is an absolute right and I do not need to apologise for it. I do not have to apologise for any view I have. No-one is entitled to expect an apology for a view that they don't like.
 
It is saying the views that causes offence to those who don't like the views.
 
I happily apologised for posting those views on Twitter and also removed the posts specifically to stop causing further unintended offence. That was a proper and unqualified apology for any offence caused by my views.
 
They can't also say that just because I have not changed my mind that I have therefore not actually apologised at all. That's just muddled nonsense. I am entitled to believe what I want and to try to justify it.
 
I am certain that I've not breached any code of conduct though not for the reasons I've seen stated by various people. The reality is that freedom of speech applies to politicians as a matter of Human Rights Law.
 
Also, the Taylor Report does not only say that the Police were to blame on the day. It explains extensively how boisterous crowd culture came about as part of the unruly and hooligan culture of football crowds which included pushing and shoving as a general problem which the Police and others should have planned for properly.
 
There is a huge denial and intimidation campaign going on here .... and I have accidentally walked into it.
 
I am now coming out guns blazing .... and I will win this one ....   I am right.
 
The main problem with my original tweets was that the tweets only focussed on the hooligan aspect of the problem. I did not initially say that the Taylor Report said that the main blame was dreadful incompetent crowd control ... but I thought everyone knew that anyway ... and you can't say much in Tweet - just a quick sentence.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 02, 2010, 05:06:25 am
140 characters. Not enough to do much but hang yourself...

Apt words!
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 08:11:59 am
well russell you hardly seemed and looked the picture of calm and happyness.
everyone is entitled to an opinion ,  this  is having the effect where myself and other councillors are getting it seriously in the neck through your actions and words
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 02, 2010, 08:23:03 am
but this gaffe is having the effect where myself and other councillors are getting it seriously in the neck through your actions and words

Which just goes to show how ridiculously out of control the whole matter has got.

Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 02, 2010, 10:04:24 am
Copy of an email I sent today to all Wiltshire Councillors, Westbury Town Council and our local MP:
 
Dear All
 
The article on the front page of the Wiltshire Times starts off with a complete lie by saying that I have refused to apologise for some brief comments I made on Twitter blaming hooligans for the Hillsborough disaster.
 
In fact, I had issued a full and unqualified apology for any offence taken by anyone on Tuesday evening and withdrawn my original comments. Wiltshire Times knew this when they re-interviewed me on Wednesday with a different reporter who was clearly taking a different line in the matter to the original Westbury reporter who spoke to me on Tuesday.
 
I have not changed my views on the matter. Even the Taylor Report explains in detail how hooliganism led up the events of the day and caused the erection of fences and pens that trapped people and how it was the culture back then to be boisterous and jostle. We all know that the main blame for turning a crowd problem into a disaster was incompetent and inept crowd control by police and officials on the day.
 
I am entitled to hold any view that hooliganism was at the "root" of the initial problem. 
 
It is nonsense to say that a full and unqualified apology for any offence caused along with a retraction of the original comments is therefore of no value..
 
An article in Liverpool Echo on Wednesday acknowledged my apology but went on to suggest that my only motive for withdrawing the original comments was to stop the overwhelming numbers of hostile responses as if the apology was meaningless.
 
The opinion piece in Wiltshire Times is based on another lie - that I was "unrepentant" ... "and went even further in insulting the families".
 
The newspaper has simply made this up.
 
I am reporting Wiltshire Times to the Press Complaints Commission for its several lies in this matter and the clear attempt to stir up hatred based on a lie. They have even put a montage of me on a photo of the sea of flowers laid at the stadium after the disaster as if I was there and deliberately aiming my comments at victims. My comments were simply in the context of 21 years later discussing the causes.
 
I am sorry for any bother caused by this matter to anyone, such as by campaigners determined to tell anyone and everyone that no hooliganism was involved that day.
 
I fully understand and accept that members and others will want to completely disassociate themselves from my comments. I think that would be wise in the circumstances where anyone expressing a contrary view to the idea that no hooliganism occurred gets swamped with hostile messages and newspaper lies about what is said and done.
 
My Blog will continue to publish my comments on this evolving matter.
 
I will not be resigning as I have done nothing wrong.

I will be taking notes of anyone who attempts to stir this up. I expect to straighten this all out and deal with the fact that Wiltshire Times has printed lies about me previously as well.
 
Regards
Russell
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 02, 2010, 11:12:14 am
i see that its now on the wilts times site.. i couldnt find it yesterday and had to go  get a paper to see for myself what had been said.   there is only 3 commments underneath one of which is your own one russell. im surprised there isnt more comments to be honest.   maybe wilts times are being more strict on their comments and deleting a few or is it just a bit to early for the usual "russell lovers" to join in
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 02, 2010, 11:15:12 am
i see that its now on the wilts times site.. i couldnt find it yesterday and had to go  get a paper to see for myself what had been said.   there is only 3 commments underneath one of which is your own one russell. im surprised there isnt more comments to be honest.   maybe wilts times are being more strict on their comments and deleting a few or is it just a bit to early for the usual "russell lovers" to join in

Nah... it's just early. It will fill up by tonight. And I'll keep copies for the Police and Press Complaints Commission to handle.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 13:13:34 pm
Recent comments from the liverpool echo below............

what made things worse was after he apologised and after the echo interviewed him, he crried on with what he said in the first place, so his apology is meaningless.

i wonder what team he supports? he claims to support the justice for the 96 - funny way of showing it i must say.
yesterday evening,he says the wiltshire newspaper times lied about him - and mentions he will go to the press complaints authority before it has been published. because he had already apologised in twitter after deleting the tweets, carried on by saying he has not changed his views, only withdrawing them from sight. then restarted the pushing and shoving on the day comment......



The comments of rh are vile disgusting lies which make my blood boil. I will not comment any further because people like rh are a protected species thats why they freely create these shocking stories because they are untouchable.
rh you disgust me

Stuart Littlewood Hillsborough Survivor
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 13:33:55 pm
Ive heard there is now a petition in the town public houses calling for russell's resignation immediatley :o
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 13:34:56 pm
Quote
Which just goes to show how ridiculously out of control the whole matter has got.
really bob so who's at fault then?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 13:35:31 pm
Ive heard there is now a petition in the town public houses calling for russell's resignation immediatley :o
hardly a surprise then mike :o
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 13:42:17 pm
well its not going to go away for a while is it ! it will die down soon im sure and most people will forget all about this
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 13:47:25 pm
well its not going to go away for a while is it ! it will die down soon im sure and most people will forget all about this
the people that count are folks of liverpool,we should all spare a thought for them....will they forget ?.....
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 13:54:40 pm
No of course they will never forget and they should never ever have to go through that again , I was mortified like everyone else when this occured back in 1989 and to drag it all up again is only going to pain the good people of Merseyside and Liverpool more
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 13:57:41 pm
i found this comment and i take my hat of to the chap [app] [app]


yes Cllr Hawker made them comments on twitter but who would want a councillor like him with such lies has this councillor not jumped on the bandwagon ooo look at me,

im 28 ive been going to watch liverpool since 1992, i remember being young kid standing on kop v manchester united it was horrible all sandwiched together at one point i fell onto ground and one fan helped me up and sat me on metal bar telling me if i fall again just grab him around the neck, i must off grabbed this man about 20 times, this fan was not from liverpool but he had the liverpool way about him, and the liverpool way is one that takes years to learn.

we respect our fans ok we have come from poor background but we stick together and we always land on our feet to say liverpool fans caused hillsborough is kick in teeth for every liverpool fan.

It was shabby football stadium with very bad policing why did two cctv videos go missing and to this day never been recovered.

The fool has given Wiltshire such bad name, you have people on the streets for when soldiers come home after been killed in iraq etc you show so much respect but now you let someone mock 96 men, WOMEN AND CHILDREN who died, what does he get from this pat on the back from number 10, sad sad day when you turn a blind eye to someone who comes out with comments like this, the sad thing is you cant educate people like him. the people off Wiltshire are in safe hands with this councillor.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 14:10:09 pm
So Russell will you be a Man and do this !!!

AY MC LFC, Liverpool says...
11:23am Fri 2 Jul 10
Lets not insult this person but lets educate him, Mr hawker i want you to meet the hillsborough panel and review some documents with them, this is the only way you can be a man, meet the panel and make up your own mind instead off making things up, I know couple lib dem councillors in liverpool who may be able to help you, then once you have read some documents you make be honest and make your own mind up, lets be honest your at rock bottom now so now its time to see if you are good councillor
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 14:13:33 pm
All Russell Had to do is STAND UP and APOLOGISE TAKE BACK WHAT HE SAID .. even if he did not think it was wrong what he said.. He should of just kept his Mouth SHUT AND WALKED AWAY.. it would of died down... now it is never going to go away......
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 02, 2010, 14:31:00 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 14:40:07 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 02, 2010, 15:33:08 pm
people like me have right to express their opinion  ;)

As does everyone.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 15:58:34 pm
Yes Bob everyone has a right to free speech and options : there's no way of getting away with that.. But sometimes it's better to keep your options to ones self.. specially if you are in the public eye. even though he said what he said as a private person which when anything goes wrong he just happens to have said it as a private person !!! HE IS STILL IN THE PUBLIC EYE LIKE IT OR NOT... ( REMMEMBER MR BROWN'S LITTLE SPEECH IN THE CAR THAT WAS PRIVATE TOO AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED )
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 02, 2010, 16:09:24 pm
Yes Bob everyone has a right to free speech and options : there's no way of getting away with that.. But sometimes it's better to keep your options to ones self..

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 02, 2010, 16:42:02 pm
looks like the next town meeting is going to be busy by all accounts... 

 
Quote
Good Afternoon,

Firstly may I make it perfectly clear the current anger towards Mr Hawker is in no way whatsoever directed towards the people of Westbury. After reading this thread today it would appear the sense of disgust in his comments is shared by yourselves.

As I'm sure you've guessed, I'm from Liverpool but now live in sunny Swindon, meaning a councillor who represents me at County level making these comments has struck a very bitter nerve indeed and I would like some action to be taken against him, we are being told his comments are made on a personal level, but his emails to various people from his official council email address suggest otherwise.

I will be attending the Town Council meeting on Monday at 7pm and will be addressing the panel demanding the immediate removal of Mr Hawker, I understand I don't hold much ground as a non resident of Westbury, so I am asking for your support. Please come along if you can, I won't be alone, with people affected by the disaster travelling from far and wide to voice their opinion so it would be good to have your support if you can make it.

See you there.

this is by a newmember on the other forum ..thankfully sensible people dont actually hold "westbury" ewsponsible for russells words going by this persons comments and ones i have seen on the redandwhite forum
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 02, 2010, 17:25:19 pm
All this talk of petitions and calls for my resignation means nothing when the people doing the petitioning have no business in judging my suitability as a councillor anyway.
 
The only people who matter to me at the town council are the electors of Westbury Ham ward, and at Wiltshire Council the electors of Westbury West Division. Westbury Ham will cease to exist at the the next main elections in May 2013, so the only people who can judge the matter in a proper poll are the electors of the new Westbury West Division in May 2013. And that's if I actually bother to run anyway.
 
Swindon is not even in the Wiltshire Council district of Wiltshire. It is covered by Swindon Borough Council.
 
It will be fun to see if people are happy to keep coming along to council meetings. It's their choice and I will enjoy watching them all wasting their own time.
 
It's a shame that I'm on holiday from Monday and will not there to see the utter pointlessness of people making futile jestures and irrelevant comments about my post as councillor for the next 3 years.
 
Looks like my spot on the front pages has been booked for the next few weeks ....    ::)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Old Codger on July 02, 2010, 18:05:09 pm
We shall have to get Russell to do something wrong again as its certainly woke the two Westbury Forums up ;D
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 02, 2010, 18:10:22 pm
We shall have to get Russell to do something wrong again as its certainly woke the two Westbury Forums up ;D
     [app]   [app]   and the wilts times...and the redandwhiteforum and the liverpool echo ...and....and.....and
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 19:23:31 pm
Quote
The only people who matter to me at the town council are the electors of Westbury Ham ward, and at Wiltshire Council the electors of Westbury West Division. Westbury Ham will cease to exist at the the next main elections in May 2013, so the only people who can judge the matter in a proper poll are the electors of the new Westbury West Division in May 2013. And that's if I actually bother to run anyway.
i will be attending the meeting with others who you are so called representing,i really think you should attend.....

i am at present looking into having you removed as my councillor,watch this space.......
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 19:47:53 pm
Quote
All this talk of petitions and calls for my resignation means nothing when the people doing the petitioning have no business in judging my suitability as a councillor anyway.
But Russell the petitions has been started in WESTBURY !!!!! So it should mean something to you.. It's Us people of WESTBURY and we do have business in judging you....
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 19:53:22 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Mike Hawkins on July 02, 2010, 19:55:10 pm
Attend the meeting by all means and state your opinions.

However, you must recognise that Westbury Town Councillors have NO power whatsoever to remove a fellow councillor, whether they agree with his views or not, so it is no good demanding that we remove him.

Russell was elected by the electorate in Westbury Ham (for Town Council) and for the Division in the Wiltshire Council elections.

Only the electorate (at the next election), or the Standards Board (or its' present equivalent) can remove him from office.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 02, 2010, 20:02:51 pm
Pat, have you nothing better to do than copy and paste from other websites?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 20:05:22 pm
Pat, have you nothing better to do than copy and paste from other websites?
i was thinking it's about time you crawled from your stone......
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 20:26:39 pm
Pat, have you nothing better to do than copy and paste from other websites?
  As Russell quoted
Quote
As a local councillor, the only people who should care about what I say are local people who choose to take an interest.
As Russell is our local councillor we have a interest in what he Say's exceptionally about the dead who can not like Russell try to defend themselves .. So yes why should he not just repeat what Russell has said he started it... One one else put the words in his mouth...
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 02, 2010, 20:59:44 pm
Pat, have you nothing better to do than copy and paste from other websites?
  As Russell quoted
Quote
As a local councillor, the only people who should care about what I say are local people who choose to take an interest.
As Russell is our local councillor we have a interest in what he Say's exceptionally about the dead who can not like Russell try to defend themselves .. So yes why should he not just repeat what Russell has said he started it... One one else put the words in his mouth...

 
This is sheer nonsense.
 
I have said nothing about the dead.
 
I have stated clearly that my comments were aimed at the culprits, not the victims.
 
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 21:13:15 pm
Quote
This is sheer nonsense.
Please explain. to my understanding the victims are those left behind.. the culprits are all of those that was in the stands that day...well according to you any way.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 02, 2010, 21:16:05 pm
from t other forum............

So, let me get this straight - are the quotes from the other site posted by Mucker actually real?

So, he thinks now he's in position it doesn't actually matter whether he is popular or not?   I - me and my family - are - and will be - part of his electorate and in no way whatsoever (quote me anyone) does he represent us.

If his attitude is "If I bother" I would rather he didnt than have some half arisd half committed egotistical narcissistic maniac brainwash any more people into thinking just because he's done a little bit for the community he is worth a vote.


QUote "ll this talk of petitions and calls for my resignation means nothing when the people doing the petitioning have no business in judging my suitability as a councillor anyway."

We,,, I have business in judging him as a councillor and I say - GO AWAY, YOU ARE EMBARASSING US AND WASTING THE COUNCILS TIME WHEN IT COULD BE SPENT DOING SOMETHING MORE USEFUL.  JUST GO AWAY - HAVE THE DECENCY TO SIMPLY GET LOST.

Can we not start a facebook page or something?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 21:23:51 pm
great just had another pissed off person shouting down the phone at me about this and why cany i do something
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 02, 2010, 21:29:15 pm
great just had another pissed off person shouting down the phone at me about this and why cany i do something

Don't worry Mike they must be f***ing stupid if they can't realise it's only Russell's opinion.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 02, 2010, 21:35:16 pm
Shizzy it may only be Russell's option but he did do it in public.. and he has upset a lot people not only in liverpool but here too.. Liverpool people may never walk alone.. but i think Russell will be on this one !!!!!
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 02, 2010, 21:57:19 pm
someone came into the shop and stated quite bizzarely very loudly to my staff its not only the DEAD YOUVE INSULTED BUT ALSO THE LIVING.
this when i was in the staff room i shot out and said to them it was not a matter that warrants shouting at my staff or within my buisness , as its nothing whatsoever to do with BananaBlues or myself as a councillor
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 05:52:24 am
The only reason anyone is talking to Mike about this matter is because he is talking about it and putting his name everywhere in connection with the matter.
 
Every other local councillor is just keeping away from the matter, or simply saying that they are not involved and have no comment.
 
Mike is getting himself involved and making himself a target for comments.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 06:58:19 am
you cheeky f'er i was trying to help you at this time cleAN UP THE PR DISASTER YOUVE CREATED YOUR ON YOUR OWN MATE I CANT BELIEVE WHAT A CHEEKY f'ER YOU ARE PS you owe me 45p for the western daily press, the reason and people are talking to me about this is im in town and everyone knows who and where i am and naturally want to vent their anger and bingo lets go in there , ive had loads of phone calls and emails , when i just read your comments if you where here right now id give you a serious slap , dont bother speaking to me again , anyone who says anything to me im not going to defend you or anything ill just tell them now to contact you as youre on your own
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 03, 2010, 07:00:09 am
The only reason anyone is talking to Mike about this matter is because he is talking about it and putting his name everywhere in connection with the matter.
 
Every other local councillor is just keeping away from the matter, or simply saying that they are not involved and have no comment.
 
Mike is getting himself involved and making himself a target for comments.
baldy you talk absolute rubbish,it would seem mike has been dragged into your sorry mess.

people are going to go into his shop as he is at the sharp end. mike has a bussiness to run,and is a proactive councillor,unlike you hidding behind your computer.seems a bit odd you are on holiday as of monday,not running away by any chance are you?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 03, 2010, 08:01:47 am
if you where here right now id give you a serious slap ,

Oh dear Mike, threats of personal violence towards a fellow councillor, not the behaviour I would expect from a councillor.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 08:06:30 am
well i knew youd be there with your electric mixer .and it was not threats it was a statement .off you go report me to the council, im not acting on here as a councillor and using my own equipment thankyou not council equipment
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 03, 2010, 08:14:58 am
Mike, I don't do telling tales. If you want to behave like that on a public forum then fill your boots.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 08:54:47 am
Dear Dear Russell i think you have finally put the nail in the coffin this time .... And shizzy put your wooden spoon back in the draw.. Russell really can't help himself can he.. The words SHUT UP AND WALK AWAY.. dont seem to stick in....
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 12:10:12 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 12:32:14 pm
A democracy does not hire and fire elected councillors by lynch mob.
 
There is a reason why elections involve a period of three weeks to campaign first.
 
The campaign period  gives the politician a chance to put their views out and give their side of any argument.
 
A hot-headed lynch mob which is simply on a high after reading a sensational and fundamentally misleading newspaper article, has no right whatsoever to determine - or pretend to determine - whether a councillor should be removed from their seat.
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 12:45:04 pm
So the e-mail below is not you being Russell Hawker
Wiltshire Councillor for Westbury West then.. you it you a private person !!!!!!

I'm afraid that it is simply nonsense to suggest that people who pushed others are not responsible. The whole problem started with people crushing together as a result of pushing.

I know that the Police made matters worse with a series of grossly stupid inept decisions or inaction at the worst moments.

Regards
Russell

Russell Hawker
Wiltshire Councillor for Westbury West

June 29th 13:57
From Russell.Hawker@wiltshire.gov.uk
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 12:49:31 pm
So Russell how are you going to get out of this quote
Quote
'm afraid that it is simply nonsense to suggest that people who pushed others are not responsible. The whole problem started with people crushing together as a result of pushing.
The 96 that died must of pushed at some point because they was being pushed.  so your saying it's there fault they died... and before you say i am twisting it or i am muddled.. its here in black and white from your council e-mail address
Quote
Russell Hawker
Wiltshire Councillor for Westbury West

June 29th 13:57
From Russell.Hawker@wiltshire.gov.uk
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 13:07:57 pm

 The 96 that died must of pushed at some point because they was being pushed.  so your saying it's there fault they died...
 

No. That is not what I've said. You need to look at the exact words I used. I did not mean people simply pushing back when they get pushed.
 
I was simply making a brief comment about the cause of the problem - I was not referring to the victims at all.
 
I have never made any comments that try to insult the victims and their relatives and friends.
 
The only true context for my comments is one where I have basically made a brief comment 21 years after the event about what I think was at the root of the problem ... not what turned the problem into a terrible disaster.
 
My quick tweet was not dealing with who should get most blame. As we all know, that belongs to the police who completely misjudged the crowd control measures needed. In effect, they turned a boisterous crowd and crowd problem into a disaster when they should have properly handled what they should have recognised as a crowd problem that needed careful proper handling.
 
 
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 13:27:29 pm
 So what was they spose to do then Russell, they was all pushed into a confined space.. this is why the pushing started.. they never went out and brought tickets and thought... i no when we get there lets make sure we can all get shoved into a confined space where we cant move and then we can be called unruly and caused the death's of 96 people..

NO THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID..

 
Quote
I know about the stupidity of pointing the crowd at a small already full pen, but it was the pushing that turned ineptitude into a deadly disaster. Its obvious that physical contact and pushing led to the crushing. There was pushing. There would have been no problem if people had not pushed up against other.

I don't think victims families should be trying to rewrite history, though I agree with their determination to show that the Police turned the dangers of unruly people who push and shove into a disaster through incompetence in opening the gate and causing a surge of people prone to pushing.

Regards
Russell

Russell Hawker
Wiltshire Councillor for Westbury West
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 13:52:48 pm
You are trying to add meanings to what I said.
 
All I meant was that people should not have pushed hard at each other in the first place.
 
Once that starts, lost of people become unable to prevent what happens and they have to push back.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 03, 2010, 14:01:24 pm

 The 96 that died must of pushed at some point because they was being pushed.  so your saying it's there fault they died...
 

No. That is not what I've said. You need to look at the exact words I used. I did not mean people simply pushing back when they get pushed.
 
I was simply making a brief comment about the cause of the problem - I was not referring to the victims at all.
 
I have never made any comments that try to insult the victims and their relatives and friends.
 
The only true context for my comments is one where I have basically made a brief comment 21 years after the event about what I think was at the root of the problem ... not what turned the problem into a terrible disaster.
 
My quick tweet was not dealing with who should get most blame. As we all know, that belongs to the police who completely misjudged the crowd control measures needed. In effect, they turned a boisterous crowd and crowd problem into a disaster when they should have properly handled what they should have recognised as a crowd problem that needed careful proper handling.


thats not what the liverpool echo has said ruseell

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/06/30/wiltshire-councillor-russell-hawker-refuses-to-withdraw-crowd-pushing-assertion-on-hillsborough-disaster-100252-26753856/#sitelife-comments-bottom
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 03, 2010, 14:27:43 pm
More importantly, have you paid Mike his 45p yet? You don't want him instructing his lawyers again.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 15:35:43 pm
Quote
You are trying to add meanings to what I said.
no I am not.. What you said and what you meant are two different things.. thats your problem Russell ..
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 15:39:11 pm
your being childish shizzy yet again , the 45p issue was over russell asked me to buy 2 copies of the western daily press , I only managed to obtain 1 copy he picked this up and never did offer the money I paid for it , he can quite clearly keep the money Im in no need of it!
but I will quite clearly say yes if i am defamed in any way yes I will instruct my Lawyers to act immediatley without a doubt ! I hope that is crystal clear .
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Old Codger on July 03, 2010, 15:54:30 pm
Good job he didn't have the paper today its 65p on a Saturday!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 03, 2010, 17:08:44 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 03, 2010, 20:19:02 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 20:47:35 pm
IF  iF'S and buts where pots and pans there would be no need for tinkers
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 03, 2010, 20:51:19 pm
or tweeters
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 22:08:44 pm
I think its time this subject really came to a close now .
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 03, 2010, 23:24:01 pm
A perfect song to finish this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDVQkVYiHs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVP9yM-Vi8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDVQkVYiHs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVP9yM-Vi8)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 04, 2010, 08:11:12 am
A perfect song to finish this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDVQkVYiHs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVP9yM-Vi8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDVQkVYiHs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVP9yM-Vi8)
LMAO ;D
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 04, 2010, 09:02:24 am
Looks like the votes on both forums are going against baldy,wonder if that reflects the feelings of the rest of westbury folk :-\
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 04, 2010, 09:06:19 am
recent comments from johnsouthwales on the WT..................

i would suggest mr hawker to read it all again. he has been offered by many people for it to be expalined..

if there was no pushing or shoving outside as he puts it, there still would have been the incident inside.

the central pens were already full.. the gate C was opened at 2:52pm...

pens 3 and 4 (the central pens) were not sealed off at the tunnel... this is a clue for him..hope this doesn't have to be explained to him again.. build up of supporters outside or no build up outside, the same people were heading the same direction.. it was impossible fro supporters to know the pens were full because that responsibility laid with the authorities, and when the pens are full, they close the gate and when the gate was closed, means that supporters had to find their way around to the side pens.. 1988, the tunnel was closed when it was full.. 1989 it wasn't.. and it was like lambs to the slaughter.

if mr hawker finally acknowledges that the crushing was occuring inside, the influx of the supporters heading into the central pens which lead to the worsening of the conditions, still would have happened whether the supporters outside were queuing in a normal fashion.. the crush inside was already occuring. there were two crushes - inside and outside.. pushing and shoving had no bearing. the crush outside was occuring without the aid of pushing and shoving or whatever he wants to call it.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Farmer_Geddon on July 05, 2010, 08:52:35 am
Hello, 

Firstly, Baldy, families and those who were directed affected by the hillsborough disaster have been campaigning for justice for 21 years. If you think this is going to 'blow over shortly' and it will all be forgotten you really are quite naive. What you have done is slur the name of 96 dead fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and most importantly of all - peoples CHILDREN. Not to mention the hundreds of survivors whose actions in the immediate aftermath saved countless lives. (These are the same people whom you view as responsible for those deaths) and before you start with the "that's not what I meant" nonsense, don't bother.

Secondly, Baldy, I have been watching and reading your comments on here over the last few days, your back tracking, editing comments and outright arrogance has given me a sense of de ja vu. Does the name Steven Cohen ring any bells with you? Mr Cohen shared some similar 'views' on and around the 20th anniversary of the disaster. At the time he was the host of North America's biggest soccer show. Now he's not. Google him.

Finally, Baldy, I suggest you pull your head out of your arse and get in touch with someone at 1. The hillsborough Justice Campaign 2. The hillsborough family support group and 3. Anne Williams at hope for hillsborough and see if you can work out some sort of public apology through them. You can look them up on google after you've read about Mr Cohen.

To the people of Westbury who have voiced their opinions on this matter I would like to thank you on behalf of all of us associated with the city of Liverpool. Your comments have been reassuring and heartfelt, and it's a terrible shame you are represented by such a mess of a man.

We will still attend the  meeting tonight, please don't batten down the hatches. It will have been a long day by the time some of us get to you so if you can point us in the way of a decent cup of tea we'd be most grateful.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: molly on July 05, 2010, 09:38:13 am
please accept my sincerest apologies and....i for one would be honoured to make you a cuppa and offer my humble home facilities (the loo !) if required. i know what it is like to be one of a family whose loved ones died tragically. i lost 2 daughter's and their dad and...that pain never goes away....have a safe journey today and please be assured that westbury is ashamed, deeply and profoundly, by remarks made by someone who should be representing us and not in the way that he did.....lol
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 05, 2010, 10:12:30 am
Great stuff!

 ;D
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 05, 2010, 10:24:56 am
Hello,

Firstly, Baldy, families and those who were directed affected by the hillsborough disaster have been campaigning for justice for 21 years. If you think this is going to 'blow over shortly' and it will all be forgotten you really are quite naive. What you have done is slur the name of 96 dead fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and most importantly of all - peoples CHILDREN. Not to mention the hundreds of survivors whose actions in the immediate aftermath saved countless lives. (These are the same people whom you view as responsible for those deaths) and before you start with the "that's not what I meant" nonsense, don't bother.

Secondly, Baldy, I have been watching and reading your comments on here over the last few days, your back tracking, editing comments and outright arrogance has given me a sense of de ja vu. Does the name Steven Cohen ring any bells with you? Mr Cohen shared some similar 'views' on and around the 20th anniversary of the disaster. At the time he was the host of North America's biggest soccer show. Now he's not. Google him.

Finally, Baldy, I suggest you pull your head out of your arse and get in touch with someone at 1. The hillsborough Justice Campaign 2. The hillsborough family support group and 3. Anne Williams at hope for hillsborough and see if you can work out some sort of public apology through them. You can look them up on google after you've read about Mr Cohen.

To the people of Westbury who have voiced their opinions on this matter I would like to thank you on behalf of all of us associated with the city of Liverpool. Your comments have been reassuring and heartfelt, and it's a terrible shame you are represented by such a mess of a man.

We will still attend the  meeting tonight, please don't batten down the hatches. It will have been a long day by the time some of us get to you so if you can point us in the way of a decent cup of tea we'd be most grateful.
Hi farmer_geddon,welcome to our little forum here in westbury.Having read your post,i couldnt help be moved by what you said and anyone reading will with out doubt feel the same.

You mention wishing a nice cup off tea,maybe you may wish to vist Market Place,where we have few nice public houses you may wish to visit.
if not im sure the Laverton were the meeting is taking place will be more than willing to make you all a nice cup of tea.

We all look forward to seing you tonight.and we all wish you and the family's and all those affected by the hillsborough disaster well in the future,and you are alway's in our thought's.

Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 05, 2010, 11:04:58 am
It's getting better!

 ;D

Are the stocks set up in market place yet?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 05, 2010, 11:11:38 am
Should be a lively meeting. I think Russell has bitten off more than he can chew this time.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Sector9 on July 05, 2010, 11:21:12 am
I'd also like to say that Baldy does not in any way represent my views on this matter. Have a safe journey down - I look forward to hearing about the meeting in due course.  :)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Farmer_Geddon on July 05, 2010, 11:47:18 am
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: molly on July 05, 2010, 12:13:24 pm
dear Farmer_Geddon....I am so sorry that this has all given you so much trouble and sadness......I applaud your right to say how you feel about what was said to the media by a local councillor from here who was "spouting" (can't be ruder...) an opinion using his "councillor title"....You may well be wrong about Council's here "not being able to do anything about him" !!??.....I for one hope that the Truth will come out, once and for all, so that we here in Westbury won't have to go on putting up with what is, surely, an appalling display of Attention Seeking from "the one who got elected" ??.....Please accept this kind thought from us all in Westbury ?......"at the going down of the Sun...we will remember them"........Be Assured...we WILL all remember you for your Courage.....lol
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Sector9 on July 05, 2010, 13:15:04 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 05, 2010, 15:43:21 pm
I'd also like to say that Baldy does not in any way represent my views on this matter. Have a safe journey down - I look forward to hearing about the meeting in due course.  :)


 [app]   [app]  and im quite sure that goes for all of us on here and the other forum as well.. he might be a councillor but in no way does he speak for us all on a lot of matters especially as one as sensitive as hillsborough tragedy


welcome to the forum  all of you  ( i recognise a few of the names from the redandwhite forum ) and i hope you all get the outcome you want..... and wish you all well and for those travelling a safe journey.

 the market place will be the place to find some good food and a drink. ask anyone and im sure they will only be to glad to tell you where it is.  believe it or not we are a friendly community  :)


shock horror!!!   ::)   shizzy i for once agree with you....   i too think he has bitten off more than he can chew with this little lot
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 05, 2010, 16:19:41 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Debs on July 07, 2010, 20:40:03 pm
which one is it on? 01/02/03/.....?

can't find anything after 1min 55secs on any of them

nor me...i think the timescale you have to listen to it has now gone by..by a day :(  i couldnt get anything either..certainly nothing dated 30th   it starts on the 1st when i looked at it
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 07, 2010, 20:42:50 pm
which one is it on? 01/02/03/.....?

can't find anything after 1min 55secs on any of them
john,the link originaly went to the interview on the 30th june,it seems to have changed,and i can no longer find it :-[
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 07, 2010, 20:45:47 pm
may as well take the link down.. save people time looking for it.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 07, 2010, 20:52:02 pm
may as well take the link down.. save people time looking for it.
ok will do it now........... :-[
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 07, 2010, 21:38:16 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by oafs pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 08, 2010, 08:06:07 am
Question for Mike Hawkins.


But it was essential, politically, to blame everybody but those who actually caused the problem.

what exactly do you mean by that statement?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 08, 2010, 08:26:49 am
that quote from mike hawkins says to me it was the police's fault
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 08, 2010, 08:33:32 am
It could be interpreted differently by someone muddled and confused!!

Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 08, 2010, 21:14:40 pm
I quite agree bob
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 09, 2010, 11:06:32 am




But it was essential, politically, to blame everybody but those who actually caused the problem.

Yep, that comment could be construed to be in agreement with this comment.........


 But, surely the root of the problem was fans pushing and shoving in the first place.
 
Yes, the Police made stupid decisions about letting far too many fans into a small pen just as the match was about to start which muliplied the problem into a disaster, but if people had not pushed into each other there would have been a big problem but not a terrible disaster.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 09, 2010, 11:42:33 am
latest update

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/07/09/hillsborough-slur-councillor-russell-hawker-escapes-censure-but-finally-admits-he-was-wrong-100252-26816088/

Not sure that this a true story we can all make up our minds.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 09, 2010, 11:47:40 am
It's true.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 09, 2010, 12:02:22 pm
 Before i make comment: Russell can i ask is this only statement that is going to be issued
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 09, 2010, 12:02:57 pm
Maybe this will now draw a line under the whole episode.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 09, 2010, 12:29:58 pm
I have not yet finsihed writing, editing and correcting the statement.
 
There will be one statement ... soon ... maybe on Monday.
 
The quotes in Liverpool Echo are correct, but are only part of the picture ... but in the correct direction.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 09, 2010, 13:07:40 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 09, 2010, 14:33:22 pm
I see the Wiltshire Times is continuing to stir up the situation, with two new articles on its website.

http://tinyurl.com/3x9owbd

http://tinyurl.com/2wmgkck
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Muffin the Mule on July 09, 2010, 14:46:17 pm
I have not yet finsihed writing, editing and correcting the statement.
 
There will be one statement ... soon ... maybe on Monday.
 
The quotes in Liverpool Echo are correct, but are only part of the picture ... but in the correct direction.


you sad sad man, your loving this


you really will reap what you sow






Justice for the 96
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 09, 2010, 15:12:41 pm
I see the Wiltshire Times is continuing to stir up the situation, with two new articles on its website.

http://tinyurl.com/3x9owbd

http://tinyurl.com/2wmgkck
how is it stirring up the situation?

why add the links to the articles?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 09, 2010, 15:51:18 pm
How is it Pat? By not reporting in a neutral fashion.

Why post links, so people can make up their own minds rather than being sheep.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 09, 2010, 16:41:06 pm
here is a link to the taylor report via wkipedia - not for the faint hearted and lenghy reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Report

another link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_Disaster

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/history-html.htm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Rosebud on July 09, 2010, 18:35:08 pm
I see the Wiltshire Times is continuing to stir up the situation, with two new articles on its website.

http://tinyurl.com/3x9owbd

http://tinyurl.com/2wmgkck
Pat, have you nothing better to do than copy and paste from other websites?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 09, 2010, 19:28:34 pm
How is it Pat? By not reporting in a neutral fashion.

Why post links, so people can make up their own minds rather than being sheep.
i thought both articles in the WT were both very accurate and to the point.as most people would probably agree.............
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by oafs pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Mike Hawkins on July 09, 2010, 19:54:42 pm
Question for Mike Hawkins.


But it was essential, politically, to blame everybody but those who actually caused the problem.

what exactly do you mean by that statement?

Sorry for the delay Bob, but I have been in Burton on Trent for the past 2 days.

I felt that had all the questions been answered, including how much of this was caused by the Mersyside Police deciding what action should be taken in getting the maximum number of people in what was "caged areas", or indeed the policy created, presumably by Government, that caging was the "best option", the relatives of those killed, and those injured, would not have had to wait all these years for some compensation.

I agree with previous commentators, that "pushing and shoving" does not necessarily mean "hooliganism".

The caging system was a total disaster that has now been revoked.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Farmer_Geddon on July 09, 2010, 20:12:33 pm
Hi Mike,

South Yorkshire police were in charge on the day.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Mike Hawkins on July 09, 2010, 21:24:45 pm
Hi Mike,

South Yorkshire police were in charge on the day.

Oops, thanks for the correction!

I didn't know South Yorkshire had a football team (God, I hope I am now not going to do a Russell and upset South Yorkshire residents!!), so what knowledge of premier matches control would they have?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Farmer_Geddon on July 09, 2010, 21:31:18 pm
No problem Mike.

The game was played at Sheffield Wednesdays stadium and coincidentally the exact same teams (Liverpool & Nottingham Forest) had met there for the same game the year before.

The difference in 89 was a different commanding officer who was taking charge of his first ever football match.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 09, 2010, 21:44:11 pm
(http://www.coastandcountryside.com/graphics/images/yorkshire_map.jpg)

(http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/npt/images/large/forcemap.jpg)
west yorkshire

(http://extra.shu.ac.uk/syall/syorksmap.gif)
south yorkshire

south yorkshire comprises of sheffield wednesday, sheffield united, Rotherham United, Barnsley, Doncaster Rovers,
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 10, 2010, 18:20:10 pm
John, whos copyright is all that you have just pasted, you don't attribute it.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 10, 2010, 20:55:14 pm
al,

the posts have been deleted for you, since you kindly brought up the copyright subject, of which you find objectionable and questionable.

obviously you are more concerned about copyright rather than the free information that is available on the taylor report itself, it must be embarrassing for you to find it in here.

the taylor report is available on many website, but wikipedia has some links in there.  or is the title wikepedia is subject to copyright as well???

or do you not wish people to read the report in case it highlights something?
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 10, 2010, 21:00:35 pm
I didn't say I found anything objectionable or questionable. I just asked. You chose to remove it.

Suggesting that I am more concerned about copyright than free information is amusing, but I guess you don't know me!

All websites are subject to the terms of copyright under which they are published (this server is UK based to subject to UK copyright incase you wondered). Wikipedia is no different to any other site. If the Taylor report is so openly available online, why not link to it for those interested?

Al
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 10, 2010, 21:06:26 pm
out of interest, how many have read the interim taylor report?

1 for once, 2 for twice, 3 for three times and so on..........
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 10, 2010, 21:17:37 pm
yes, it is true i don't know you.

and neither do you know me..

information was put up for ALL people to read....  with or without copyright.

but al was the only person to mention about it.. why?

i'm glad you find the subject amusing.

if you have any other agenda al, feel free to mention. 

or maybe al you can be kind enough to put your thoughts about the subject in here...
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Mike Hawkins on July 10, 2010, 21:22:07 pm
Hi Mike,

South Yorkshire police were in charge on the day.

Oops, thanks for the correction!

I didn't know South Yorkshire had a football team (God, I hope I am now not going to do a Russell and upset South Yorkshire residents!!), so what knowledge of premier matches control would they have?

My sincere and unqualified apology to the below teams and their fans:


South Yorkshire comprises of Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United, Rotherham United, Barnsley, Doncaster Rovers.

(Info kindly provided by johnsouthwales)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 10, 2010, 22:19:55 pm
but al was the only person to mention about it.. why?
Simple. I own the server you posted the data onto. I am legally responsible for all data on that server and served by it (stupid rushed through legislation!). Thus I asked what the copyright was so I knew where things stood.

Quite why you think I find anything here amusing I know not. I'm not laughing.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: cuthbert-murray on July 10, 2010, 22:23:53 pm
lookin at the booklet there is no copyright on it whatsoever ! as its a document made by an offical inquiry
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Al on July 10, 2010, 22:24:28 pm
There we go, thanks Mike :-)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Shizzy on July 10, 2010, 22:34:54 pm
I don't think Al was being malicious, but it's generally consider good form to use an excerpt and a link.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 11, 2010, 01:23:17 am
I'm not completely sure, but I suspect that as it is a public document with Crown Copyright produced for the Home Office for public consumption, the copyright is waived.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 02:35:10 am
someone said to me before, a class somewhere was doing a project on hillsborough.
the tutor used the s*n newspaper as a source.... dear me
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: pat on July 11, 2010, 14:23:43 pm
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 17:59:07 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca52fsOZjAU&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 17:59:40 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQLYWkIzdQk&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:00:12 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jarn0dGDU5E&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:00:38 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SmM9KuhIQ
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:02:57 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieVUJZJbeiM&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:04:47 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjvQyC6Kqfg&feature=related

the radio commentator said the police room said that no gate was charged in ( 5:48secs)
the same was repeated @ 8:42secs

just exactly how many lies were started on the day?  approx 3:15, the taylor report clearly states that At about 3.15 pm, Mr Graham Kelly, Chief Executive of the FA, Mr Kirton also of the FA and Mr
Graham Mackrell, Secretary of Sheffield Wednesday, went to the control room for information. Mr
Duckenfield told them he thought there were fatalities and the game was likely to be abandoned. He also said a gate had been forced and there had been an inrush of Liverpool supporters.

graham kelly mentions the supporters account and also the police account.

mr kelly goes on tv.

a conservative mp feeds information later..

the start of the lies, all stemming from duckenfield..

police federation rep mentions on tv more than 500 ticketless supporters were hellbent on getting in..

sheff wed system as mentioned in the taylor report disproves this police theory.

bernard ingham press secretary to mrs thatcher blamed liverpool supporters.

mp patnick irvine fed the press the lies, the media.  daily star, the s*n,

Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:26:47 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_SmM9KuhIQ
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:28:06 pm
bbc news states that fans gained enrty through a broken turnstile.. this was omitted from later news bulletins
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 18:35:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Football+Focus+-+20th+anniversary+of+Hillsborough+disaster+pt+1&aq=f

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtRs-3jQmf8&feature=PlayList&p=5A39DDD8D9D266DB&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=49
Football Focus - 20th anniversary of Hillsborough disaster pt 1 (runs in 7 parts)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 19:00:38 pm
hillsborough facts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOFhqfOX7Xg&feature=PlayList&p=5A39DDD8D9D266DB&playnext_from=PL&index=50&playnext=2
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 19:08:12 pm
australian programme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPAD1Q2jzVI&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 19:13:41 pm
Hillsborough Cover-Up (On a clockface 3:15 = 33) bbc2 newsnight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElP8P6Pu_IU&feature=related
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 19:31:29 pm
Cook Report, Part 1 - Hope for Hillsborough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojw4xTTcVIk&feature=related

Cook Report, Part 2 - Hope for Hillsborough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV0i6YO-L6I&feature=related

Cook Report, Part 3 - Hope for Hillsborough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTppZKMUiRU&NR=1
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 11, 2010, 20:00:10 pm
Video Investigating Hillsborough 20 years on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsYBPdRHDtM
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 12, 2010, 08:01:49 am
Blimey JSW, You got shares in youtube?  ;)
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster WAS caused by oafs pushing and shoving!!!
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 12, 2010, 08:19:49 am
Question for Mike Hawkins.


But it was essential, politically, to blame everybody but those who actually caused the problem.

what exactly do you mean by that statement?

Sorry for the delay Bob, but I have been in Burton on Trent for the past 2 days.

 .

That's alright Mike. At least you replied unlike some others who I have asked questions to.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 15, 2010, 23:48:53 pm
http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/?id=93
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: johnsouthwales on July 15, 2010, 23:50:38 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: baldy on July 17, 2010, 18:44:00 pm
I'm finished with this topic in this forum.

Enough is enough.


Goodbye all.

See you on another thread about another subject.
Title: Re: Hillsborough disaster
Post by: Muffin the Mule on July 17, 2010, 19:54:04 pm
I'm finished with this topic in this forum.

Enough is enough.


Goodbye all.

See you on another thread about another subject.
.     You wish