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The General Boards => In the News => Topic started by: baldy on October 19, 2012, 21:52:43 pm

Title: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: baldy on October 19, 2012, 21:52:43 pm
BBC News:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-20012262 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-20012262)
 
Last autumn we had a great thread here: http://www.westburytownforums.co.uk/index.php/topic,3681.msg43832.html#msg43832 (http://www.westburytownforums.co.uk/index.php/topic,3681.msg43832.html#msg43832)
 
 
I said that the people running the fireworks show were to blame for this terrible accident due to the smoke that drifted across the motorway.
 
All sorts of people offered mindless comments and said I was wrong.
 
It is now clear that the police have charged the pyrotechnician with manslaughter after a long investigation.
 
 
Press Release from Avon & Somerset Police:  http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/LocalPages/NewsDetails.aspx?nsid=26308&t=1&lid=5 (http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/LocalPages/NewsDetails.aspx?nsid=26308&t=1&lid=5)
 
 
Overview of the crash:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_M5_motorway_crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_M5_motorway_crash)
 
 
Daily Mail (7/11/11)
"Blinded by the black fog: M5 crash motorists blame fireworks but rugby club organiser says it's NOT his fault":
 
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058391/M5-crash-Motorists-blame-fireworks-organiser-insists-fault.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058391/M5-crash-Motorists-blame-fireworks-organiser-insists-fault.html)
 
 
Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8871553/M5-crash-seven-dead-in-worst-ever-smash-in-Somerset.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8871553/M5-crash-seven-dead-in-worst-ever-smash-in-Somerset.html)
 
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Michael on October 19, 2012, 22:42:30 pm
Following your comments on the police sometimes getting things wrong perhaps we had better wait for the courts verdict on this one.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Michael on January 15, 2013, 17:56:53 pm
Charges dropped then, will be interesting to know the reasoning, could it have been that speed was the major contributing factor?
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Mike Hawkins on January 15, 2013, 19:18:20 pm
Charges dropped then, will be interesting to know the reasoning, could it have been that speed was the major contributing factor?

Or it could be Michael, that manslaughter charges were a "knee-jerk" reaction to a horrific incident whereas a charge under health and safety legislation was actually more realistic!
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: charlie finbow on January 15, 2013, 21:30:34 pm
Mike that would be the sensible option.   The organisers of this event did not set out to harm anyone, sadly an accident occured, thats bad enough, pointing fingers of blame is not the way forward.   Lessons should rightly be learned from this tragety.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: baldy on January 16, 2013, 09:50:48 am
BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-21024902 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-21024902)
 
Looks to me that the relevant authorities still regard this man as the primary cause of the terrible crash, though they regard it as a safety procedure issue rather than reckless behaviour towards life.
 
I wonder if the reality that the drivers were speeding in thick fog, which must have contributed to the crash, means that the authorities regard the crash as caused by a combination of circumstances rather than by one person?
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: wanderlust on January 16, 2013, 10:04:10 am
I would suggest that some people were driving too fast in fog whilst trying to look at the fireworks rather than what they should be doing.

Of course if the health & safety nazis pick it up, it'll be an excuse to ban all firework displays within 10 miles of a road.  Much more sensible than expecting people to take responsibility for their actions.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Al on January 16, 2013, 10:43:48 am
Personally, I just hope lessons are taken away from this and everyone can learn and we can reduce deaths in the future. If this makes fireworks organisers think harder about affects of shows, great. If it makes driver slow down in fog, or pay more attention to the road than fireworks, great.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Mike Hawkins on January 16, 2013, 18:47:34 pm


Of course if the health & safety nazis pick it up, it'll be an excuse to ban all firework displays within 10 miles of a road. 

May I suggest Wanderlust that you look at the HSE website (www.hse.gov.uk) and look under "health and safety myths".

The HSE, who are in power to enforce health and safety at work are also sick to death with those who use "health and safety" as an excuse to ban things. These are usually (a) insurers who want to avoid paying out for any incident, (b) "jobsworths" who use health and safety as an excuse for their own ignorance; and (c) the excuse of those who have been requested to provide guidance but are either too lazy to research the issue, or are completely lacking in the minimum skills to actually find the real answer!

Indeed, the HSE have issued guidance on fireworks safety (also available on their own website)

The "health and safety nazis" have actually no credibility with those who deal with real health and safety at work issues.

I have been employed in real health and safety for over 25 years, and these claims are totally abhorrent to me!!

So Wanderlust, do NOT believe these spurious claims, but look at the real culprits!
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: charlie finbow on January 16, 2013, 19:21:49 pm
I know from past experience that certain people use H&SE as an excuse to do or allow nothing.   In my opinion Health and Safety is nothing more than common sense, but, we now live in an age of litigation so they are a target for abuse and blame.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Shizzy on December 10, 2013, 17:11:16 pm

 
I said that the people running the fireworks show were to blame for this terrible accident due to the smoke that drifted across the motorway.
 
All sorts of people offered mindless comments and said I was wrong.
 

You were wrong -  M5 Pile-Up: Fireworks Man Cleared Over Crash http://goo.gl/0Xusto

Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: baldy on December 10, 2013, 17:24:37 pm

 
I said that the people running the fireworks show were to blame for this terrible accident due to the smoke that drifted across the motorway.
 
All sorts of people offered mindless comments and said I was wrong.
 

You were wrong -  M5 Pile-Up: Fireworks Man Cleared Over Crash http://goo.gl/0Xusto (http://goo.gl/0Xusto)

 
Well .......  he did cause the crash because he caused the smoke to occur which caused the terrible crash.
 
What you are referring to is the failure of the prosecution to secure a conviction for breach of health and safety rules based on a technical argument about him not being able to foresee how the smoke would drift during misty weather.
 
He did cause the crash because he caused the smoke, but the Law of the land is saying that he is not guilty of an offence.
 
We already know the Law is often an Ass.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Mike Hawkins on December 10, 2013, 18:29:59 pm
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: wanderlust on December 10, 2013, 18:31:28 pm
He didn't cause the crash any more than thee fog caused the crash. Stupid bloody diver's failure to react to conditions caused the crash.
Are you in the same camp that blames "dangerous roads" for local crashes rather than dangerous drivers?
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: Michael on December 10, 2013, 18:48:23 pm
Excess speed in poor visibility caused the crash there is no doubt about that, it is a fact, there will have been some drivers who were just caught up in this situation, but that is unfortunate.
As tragic as this incident was it was an accident, and to apportion blame accurately was evidently impossible, all other opinions are just that, opinions.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: charlie finbow on December 10, 2013, 18:56:57 pm
I agree with Wanderlust and Michael, he didn't intend any injury to anyone, a professional in pyrotechnics can still get it wrong, because once you fire these explosives any fall out is at the mercy of the weather.   This goes to reinforce my call to ban them, a light and lazer show with the latest technology can be dramatic and not so potentially dangerous.  I'm still a grumpy old man. [beer]
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: baldy on December 10, 2013, 19:26:25 pm
I accept that he did not intend to cause anyone any difficulty, let alone a shocking and major crash killing several people.
 
I never said he was guilty of a crime.
 
All I said was that the cause of the crash was the smoke. It certainly was a main cause (or "root cause").
 
I accept that drivers contributed to the problem, but none of them would have expected thick black smoke suddenly appearing in a way that suddenly reduced visibility to nothing.
 
I had a very frightening experience on the M3 a few years ago when I was going at about 75 mph (approx --- ahem! ) and suddenly the light mist turned to a pea-souper and reduced visibility from about 200 yards to about 20 yards.
 
I was very afraid to stamp on my brakes in case someone behind slammed into me so I slowed down gently. In reality I could have been still hit from behind or I could have found myself slamming into someone in front.  I made a guess that as there was no-one in front of me for about 100 yards as I went into the thick fog that I still had about 100 yards to get down to about 15 mph. Luckily it worked out OK for me.
Title: Re: Bad M5 Crash by Taunton last year - Pyrotechnician on manslaughter charges
Post by: wanderlust on December 10, 2013, 19:39:48 pm
I agree with Wanderlust and Michael, he didn't intend any injury to anyone, a professional in pyrotechnics can still get it wrong, because once you fire these explosives any fall out is at the mercy of the weather.   This goes to reinforce my call to ban them, a light and lazer show with the latest technology can be dramatic and not so potentially dangerous.  I'm still a grumpy old man. [beer]

Or, ban crap drivers. So am I.  [beer] [beer]