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The General Boards => In the News => Topic started by: Maxi on May 21, 2017, 09:12:21 AM

Title: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on May 21, 2017, 09:12:21 AM
Brexit is slipping down the agenda fairly rapidly in this election. Politicians are realising, perhaps to their surprise, that other things matter a lot more to people in the UK.

Indeed, despite the fact the issue has dominated all news and comment for the last four years, this election may just prove how little people actually care about it one way or another. It also raises questions once more over whether there was really a need to hold a referendum - other than to settle a 40 year-old debate within the Conservative Party.

This weekend two non-Brexit issues dominated the campaign: on both there is internal party division and real passion amongst voters.

The Conservatives announced plans to get elderly people to use the value of their assets including property worth over £100,000 to pay for their own social care. In response Tory candidates have received an earful on the doorstep and talk shows such as LBC had a flood of callers, some saying they would switch their vote to Labour.

One woman who cares for her mother at home with the help of social services called into the Nick Ferrari show worried that when her mother died she would be left homeless. In an emotional plea, Anna from Putney said: "What's going to happen to me, Mrs May? Where are you Theresa May? What's going to happen to me?"

For Labour, Jeremy Corbyn is in just as much deep water with voters on his party's flip-flopping stance on Trident. In my interview with him on Saturday he confirmed Labour's "commitment" to the nuclear defence programme, but afterwards lamented how often he is asked about whether he would press the button and wondered why journalists weren't more curious about how politicians intended to bring peace to the world.

A fair point, but national defence really matters to voters and no one is blind to the Labour leader's dismissal of the idea that he would ever find himself in a position to willingly launch a nuclear attack, even if the UK was under attack itself. In which case, the UK may as well save itself £20bn on the hardware.

“In reality the EU as a campaign issue has been met by a giant yawn from an electorate whose tummy is already too full of Brexit.”

These hot election topics are far removed from Brexit. Theresa May triggered this election saying she needed a mandate to strengthen her hand in her negotiations with the EU. Many interpreted it as her wanting to destroy Labour while gaining more seats to control her potentially rebellious backbenchers who may challenge her eventual deal. But the EU negotiation is dimming into the background as an election issue.

The Liberal Democrats eyed an opportunity in this contest to tap into the 48% who voted to remain, while UKIP might have expected more loyalty from the 52% who voted to leave. In reality the EU as a campaign issue has been met by a giant yawn from an electorate whose tummy is already too full of Brexit.

A few weeks ago bookies were predicting the Lib Dems would win back 30 or so seats, but their fight back is yet to materialise and the party's seat numbers could even remain in single figures.

UKIP meanwhile is sailing below its meagre 2010 popularity levels, with a recent poll giving it just 2% of the vote down from 12.6% in 2015. It probably won't even take back Clacton.

You could argue all this is to be expected. We have had the referendum - both Leavers and Remainers want to move on, and that might be true. But you could go further and ask whether this is evidence that the EU question has unnecessarily hijacked politics for the last four years, ever since David Cameron called the referendum with his Bloomberg speech in January 2013.

Ipsos MORI's "Issues Index" contains over 40 years of monthly data showing people's answers when asked: "What are the most important issues facing the country?" For much of the 1980s, the percentage even mentioning Europe stayed in the low single figures. In late 1990 this climbed to 18% as Britain entered the European Exchange Rate Mechanism, growing to 33% during the Maastricht Treaty debates and slightly higher when Tony Blair flirted with joining the Euro.

However, the NHS and unemployment always remained top of the list of priorities and by the turn of the century interest in the EU began to fall. In the year before David Cameron called for the referendum, just four in 100 people told Ipsos MORI that Europe was one of the issues that mattered most.

Of course, once called for, the issue took fire and amid the Euro crisis and the immigration crisis - Europe gained more attention - mostly negative. Somewhere along the way the issue of EU membership became conflated with things that do matter more to people such as immigration, welfare and even the amount of money we spend on the NHS.

But did Europe just become more central to those issues due to a relatively brief electoral blip where UKIP looked to threaten a party already weakened by Coalition? An internal struggle within the Conservatives spilled into a UK-wide decision to settle the matter?

In interviews for a book called How To Lose A Referendum, David Cameron's former Director of Communications Sir Craig Oliver disputes this, insisting the referendum was "a slow train coming". He added: "There had to be a referendum, we held it and Leave won. And the fact that Leave won tells you something, doesn't it, about why there needed to be a referendum."

It's a rather blunt and compelling point from the man who coordinated the Remain campaign. Any argument against this might seem undemocratic. But then again, if you hold a referendum on a Yes or No question someone has to win. If you talk about it for long enough opinions have to be formed.

We also know that throughout the campaign a third of people felt one way, a third of people another and a third were in the middle - undecided. We know the result was close to a 50/50 split - more evenly matched than the question of Scottish Independence.

It's also clear that the UK has a schizophrenic desire to control EU immigration whilst maintaining the benefits of the Single Market and will probably end up five more years down the line with some kind of fudge.

Was it really worth it? It's starting to feel like Brexit has been a massive distraction from bigger issues that have been ignored for too long and are finally emerging in this election - even though it is of course all still supposed to be about Brexit.

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-do-we-really-care-about-brexit-10886477 (http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-do-we-really-care-about-brexit-10886477)


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 21, 2017, 11:08:57 AM
An interesting article from Sky's Adam Bolton, and in some respect he is right, there are more pressing problems facing the eventual government of this country, and the question is can we trust Theresa May's party to deal with these problems in a fair way.
It would seem that having hit the less well of by cutting benefits the Tory's now want to attack the slightly better off by making them pay for the mess that this country is in.
The article below offers a different perspective.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c14f-Get-over-the-EU,-Lib-Dems
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on May 23, 2017, 13:27:55 PM
I voted to leave and I am not voting on the EU in this general election funny that this forum is full of tory supporters that put down the Labour leader about most of his views but no one puts down Theresa May about pinching Money from the elderly and taking away what they have worked for.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 24, 2017, 01:45:22 AM
I've been too shocked about the PM's manifesto proposal about the cost of social care for the elderly - and especially the plan to take the value of houses into the equation for care at home - to actually say anything yet.

I'm even more shocked at Theresa May then changing the the plan within days and then declaring that nothing has changed.

I knew that I personally do not like her at all on a personal level, but now my view of her is really quite negative.

The real issue though is that the choice in this general election is between Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM.  It's a dreadful choice as Corbyn is just so awful in terms of being an unapologetic terrorist sympathiser, anti-nuclear defence and unwilling to say he would actually use our nuclear deterrent ..... and to make matters worse his choice of shadow chancellor is actually financially illiterate. In an interview on BBC on Sunday, John McDonnell actually claimed several times that the money borrowed to renationalise several industries is not debt.  What he meant to say - or at least should have said - was that the debt would be self-financing as the industries that need to be bought outright from shareholders are profitable and can service their own debt.

I'm afraid that most people who will vote Labour are simply too economically illiterate to understand the terrible consequences for the country if Corbyn the buffoon became PM ...... but never mind .......... the Tories will stay in power and arrogant, difficult, shrill and wobbly Theresa will almost certainly do a few more U-turns to eventually get her policies right ...

So much for strong and stable ............ more like just about competent with regular wobbles, but still miles more competent than that utter buffoon Corbyn.

As for caring about BREXIT, I have found myself in recent days dreaming about brushing up my French and emigrating and then I wake up with a bump and remember I've just recently got myself elected to serve a 4 year term for 2 local councils ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 24, 2017, 18:37:31 PM
It appears that baldy subscribes to the Lynton Crosby approach to political debate, that of personalised abuse, the old hat diatribe and the Tory Party obsession portraying Jeremy Corbyn as an IRA supporter.
So lets look at the true position, to achieve the goal of securing a ceasefire he met Irish republican representatives, treating them as serious political voices rather than violent extremists beyond the pale of respectability.
In fact successive British governments maintained contacts with IRA leaders throughout the violence Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and four other IRA leaders were flown to London in 1972 for talks with the Tory government.
The regurgitation of this old hat rubbish strikes of political desperation, but despite this Jeremy has maintained a positive and polite approach, behaviour that we could all learn from.
On the issue of Trident it is obvious to all clear thinkers that this is no kind of deterrent to the threats we face from the terrorists, and it does seem that we are underfunding our security services when the attack we have seen on Monday cannot be avoided. 
John McDonnell made the perfectly valid point that successive governments issued bonds to achieve the money to invest in projects, this is not debt this is investment in the countries infrastructure.
The renationalization of the railways will be achieved by not renewing franchises when they come up for renewal and taking the rail companies back under public control.
All these policies have significant support, and the gap in the polls between the two major parties is narrowing as Jeremy Corbyn gets more positive coverage on the main stream media.
It would seem that Tories are incapable of thinking on their feet and debating political issues or even engaging with members of the public who haven’t been vetted by the Tory apparatchiks, especially now that the general election landslide that was expected seems to be diminishing.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on May 24, 2017, 20:13:36 PM
I'd say the IRA leaders were (and in some cases are) "violent extremists beyond the pale of respectability".  There's no excuse for Mr Corbyn's overt support for them at the height of their terrorist campaign, which was very different from the then Governments' nose-holding negotiations.  Perfectly true that nuclear weapons are no deterrent against terrorist attacks, but they are an essential deterrent against nuclear or conventional attacks. 

I'm not dismayed by the social care proposals in the Conservative manifesto, but I am at the apparent back-tracking.  The proposals seem to be very sensible, and in line with what was done in respect of my mother and mother-in-law (the latter lived to the age of 101).  In both cases their properties were sold and the proceeds devoted to their care costs - the responsible way of doing it.  I can't see why anyone would object for other than purely selfish reasons!

Nationalisation: my working career started with the Metropolitan Water Board, continued with the Thames Water Authority and ended in a senior role with Thames Water plc.  I can say of my own knowledge that privatisation was a marvellous thing for the water industry, with sounder finances, far better infrastructure, enormously improved productivity and greatly improved service to customers.  I'm in a particularly good position to judge on the last point as I was in charge of complaint handling for over a decade!  In the public sector we had "consumers" and "ratepayers" and no sense of service; after privatisation we had "customers" and a real keenness to serve them.  Renationalisation would be a fearful disaster.  I don't have the same experience of the railways, but I do have vivid memories of the disgraceful performance of British Rail when I was a regular commuter.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on May 24, 2017, 20:43:05 PM
John you would like the NHS Privatised ? it seems very unfair to me that a person who gets cancer or any other life long illness get it free why someone who gets dementia pays for it even your mother and mother in law should of been free in my opinion. But seems your happy with it i don't understand that unless of course your well off.

And for Corbyn a decent at last man who actually answers the questions.

The Invasion of Iraq
Well set off a spiral of conflict, of hate, of misery, of desperation that will fuel the wars, the conflict, the terrorism, the depression and the misery of future generations.
Jeremy Corbyn February 2003

And this Terrorist is From UK and Libya Who bombed Libya ? we never learn its about time we did.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 24, 2017, 20:49:38 PM
This thread is titled "Do we really care about Brexit" I care about Brexit. We are going to leave and we are so intertwined in so many different ways that you can't imagine and it is going to be very difficult and take much longer than anyone thinks. maybe never completely?

AND

The upcoming election is, despite what others think, about Brexit. Although Theresa May publicly supported Cameron in his quest to remain in the EU we all know she voted leave. She has seen an opportunity to increase her (small) majority to enable her to more easily negotiate the terms she wants with the EU. She has seen that Labour are in disarray with a leader who, quire frankly, doesn't look or act like he could be PM. A Labour leader who was put there by the conservatives because of just that.

I can't see Labour winning this election but I would like to see the governments majority reduced or at the best remain the same. What we don't want is May doing deals with the EU that are bad for us. A reduced majority would keep her to heel.

As for the conservative manifesto regarding social care and removing the winter fuel allowance (at least means testing it) she has shot herself in the foot with those. Definite vote losers. The most selfish people are rich conservatives and they wont like it (i've paid my taxes etc etc.)

labour have a definite vote winner with their scrapping of tuition fees. What parent and their 18 year old about to go to university wouldn't vote for that? (rich selfish Torys included) They wont care about how it's otherwise paid for or even think about it.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on May 24, 2017, 21:18:04 PM
John you would like the NHS Privatised ? it seems very unfair to me that a person who gets cancer or any other life long illness get it free why someone who gets dementia pays for it even your mother and mother in law should of been free in my opinion. But seems your happy with it i don't understand that unless of course your well off.
Surely the individual's resources should be used first, rather than expecting the taxpayer to pay.  The problem with the NHS is the insatiable demand... even Clement Attlee once described it as "grossly extravagant", and its scope has vastly expanded since then.  If patients had to pay, as they already do to some extent (e.g. dentistry), it might be possible to balance the books.

And for Corbyn a decent at last man who actually answers the questions.
I can't regard a supporter of terrorists as a decent man. 

The Invasion of Iraq
Well set off a spiral of conflict, of hate, of misery, of desperation that will fuel the wars, the conflict, the terrorism, the depression and the misery of future generations.
Jeremy Corbyn February 2003

And this Terrorist is From UK and Libya Who bombed Libya ? we never learn its about time we did.
The Manchester bomber's parents fled from Gadaffi, who was a sponsor of terrorists including the IRA.  The invasion of Iraq in 2003 didn't start the present terrorist activity, which was already well established.  Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are just opposed to Western values, as they've made very clear.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on May 24, 2017, 21:26:37 PM
I care about Brexit, too - I want it to happen.

Bob - in what way was Jeremy Corbyn "put there by the Conservatives"? 

On vote-winners and losers: scrapping tuition fees would benefit only well-off students, as the poorer ones never repay their loans anyway.  Means-testing pensioners' benefits is plain common sense, as is the proposal regarding care costs.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 24, 2017, 21:47:31 PM
John McDonnell made the perfectly valid point that successive governments issued bonds to achieve the money to invest in projects, this is not debt this is investment in the countries infrastructure.

So you too are economically illiterate.

Issuing bonds (ie. Gilts) is a way to borrow money at a stated rate of interest. It is debt. The money has to be paid back.

I accept that the money is to be used to invest in worthwhile industries though whether it is a good way to invest for the government is very debatable, but if you support a Marxist agenda then it is a normal use of debt.

It is simply ridiculous and delusional to deny that borrowing money (whether by issuing bonds / gilts or otherwise) is creating debt because issuing gilts is the main definition of government debt.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 24, 2017, 21:56:51 PM
The Labour party membership swelled amazingly when Corbyn was running for leadership. It swelled because all members have a vote and it swelled with £5 conservatives 'joining' in and being able to vote and vote for Corbyn because they saw him as the man to take the Labour party back to a place where they were never likely to win an election for the forseeable future.

The only problem now is that because May is turning around faster than a ballerina on speed and coming up with vote losing policies, it might all backfire.

Means testing pensioners for their winter heating allowance is common sense. But it wont be popular even amongst well off Tory pensioners.

Again, well off Tory's will like the scrapping of tuition fees like you say and that will lose votes. The poorer ones will always have a £50,000 + dept hanging over them if fees aren't scrapped. No incentive to get a higher paid job there? Also no chance of being able to buy a house no matter how many are built!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 24, 2017, 21:58:15 PM


So you too are economically illiterate.



I suspect 90% plus of the population are. So what..
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on May 24, 2017, 23:41:52 PM
The Labour party membership swelled amazingly when Corbyn was running for leadership. It swelled because all members have a vote and it swelled with £5 conservatives 'joining' in and being able to vote and vote for Corbyn because they saw him as the man to take the Labour party back to a place where they were never likely to win an election for the forseeable future.

The only problem now is that because May is turning around faster than a ballerina on speed and coming up with vote losing policies, it might all backfire.
Looks like a fanciful conspiracy theory!

Means testing pensioners for their winter heating allowance is common sense. But it wont be popular even amongst well off Tory pensioners.
Such as me, you mean?  I think it's an excellent idea.  Many of these "well off Tory pensioners" donate these payments to charity.

Again, well off Tory's will like the scrapping of tuition fees like you say and that will lose votes. The poorer ones will always have a £50,000 + dept hanging over them if fees aren't scrapped. No incentive to get a higher paid job there? Also no chance of being able to buy a house no matter how many are built!
I think you judge people too harshly.  Not everyone is narrowly selfish - many act pro bono publico
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 25, 2017, 07:29:15 AM
Issuing bonds (ie. Gilts) is a way to borrow money at a stated rate of interest. It is debt. The money has to be paid back.
On that basis all investment is debt, companies issue shares, governments issue bonds, a perfectly reasonable way of achieving capital to invest.
For a government to invest in infrastructure there are many benefits, not least the ability to control the use of surplus to re-invest in a publicly owned company.
The current problem exists because, particularly in the service industries, profit comes before service and shareholders reap the benefit of an inadequate service.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 25, 2017, 08:52:08 AM
No.  Not all investment creates debt. Some investors have the money to invest without borrowing.

When the money used to buy assets is borrowed, the borrowing of the money invested is creating debt.

Investment is about buying assets expected to perform well  -  ie. assets which will have some sort of adequate or better return on the money invested.

The issue that Labour seems to not understand is that when the money used to buy the assets is borrowed in the first place, that the act of borrowing is creating debt. When this happens, the investor is building up a portfolio of debt. 

This is perfectly normal, but there needs to be some competence in managing the levels of debt and the performance of the assets.

To not understand that buying assets with borrowed money involves creating debt is to simply  fail to understand what is happening overall in money terms.

It is simply ignorance and stupidity all at the same time.

To make it really simple:

When the government issues bonds, it is issuing IOU notes to borrow money. The IOU notes (ie. bonds) represent debt.

No credible government would then say that the debt is not debt because it is being spent on assets.  This is like saying that when you borrow money to buy a house that your mortgage loan is not debt.

To say this is just denying the plain, obvious and very simple truth and shows ignorance about a very basic financial issue. This level of ignorance is pure stupidity.

Actually, I do not think Corbyn is stupid enough to think that borrowing money to buy assets does not involve debt. The point I was making was that McDonnell is stupid enough to say live on TV repeatedly that borrowing money via issuing bonds is not creating more debt. He is stupid because what he said is factually wrong about a very basic point.

He thinks that investing in assets means that the debt can be ignored as if it does not exist. Saying that borrowing money to invest means there is no debt several times proves he is totally incompetent at a very basic level of finance.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 25, 2017, 10:52:10 AM
The Labour party membership swelled amazingly when Corbyn was running for leadership. It swelled because all members have a vote and it swelled with £5 conservatives 'joining' in and being able to vote and vote for Corbyn because they saw him as the man to take the Labour party back to a place where they were never likely to win an election for the forseeable future.

The only problem now is that because May is turning around faster than a ballerina on speed and coming up with vote losing policies, it might all backfire.
Looks like a fanciful conspiracy theory!



A very credible theory to me. I know several people who actually did this.


Means testing pensioners for their winter heating allowance is common sense. But it wont be popular even amongst well off Tory pensioners.
Such as me, you mean?  I think it's an excellent idea.  Many of these "well off Tory pensioners" donate these payments to charity.



I have no idea if you receive the winter fuel allowance or not or whether you donate it to charity if you do. I don't even know if you're a well off Tory. I also think it's a good idea as well. They say that the poorest pensioners will still get it. How poor do you have to be to still receive it? How far do you take it. Do you stop the state pension to everyone with a private pension that gives them an income above the basic state pension?

 


Again, well off Tory's will like the scrapping of tuition fees like you say and that will lose votes. The poorer ones will always have a £50,000 + dept hanging over them if fees aren't scrapped. No incentive to get a higher paid job there? Also no chance of being able to buy a house no matter how many are built!
I think you judge people too harshly.  Not everyone is narrowly selfish - many act pro bono publico

I agree, not everyone is narrowly minded. But I do talk to well off people (Tory's or not) and they don't like parting with their fortunes. Gawd knows what they are going to do with it when they're dead?



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 25, 2017, 12:11:58 PM
No.  Not all investment creates debt. Some investors have the money to invest without borrowing.
But you miss the point, all publically own companies, those quoted on the stock exchange invite investment, borrow money,
from the investors.
Governments do precisely the same by issuing bonds, albeit at a fixed rate of return, inviting investment from the public in a government controlled industry.
Labour Party policy is to take back control of service industries, to run them for the benefit of the user, using investment from subscribers through the medium of the sale of government bonds.
This policy has widespread support from the public.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 25, 2017, 16:02:16 PM
No.  Not all investment creates debt. Some investors have the money to invest without borrowing.
But you miss the point, all publically own companies, those quoted on the stock exchange invite investment, borrow money,
from the investors.
Governments do precisely the same by issuing bonds, albeit at a fixed rate of return, inviting investment from the public in a government controlled industry.
Labour Party policy is to take back control of service industries, to run them for the benefit of the user, using investment from subscribers through the medium of the sale of government bonds.
This policy has widespread support from the public.


I'm not missing anything.  The Government is not a company. Its debt affects everyone.


John McDonnell denied that debt is involved when borrowing the money to nationalise companies.

What you are now saying is just a diversion about the fact that borrowing does happen. It is disingenuous.

Whether the support from the public for yet more public debt is widespread or not is a moot point, but the result of the election will certainly be interesting now that strong and stable Theresa has shown she is only just about competent and actually rather wobbly whilst Corbyn is rather incompetent and his shadow chancellor is financially illiterate at even a very very basic level.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Mike Hawkins on May 25, 2017, 16:10:26 PM
But surely the last Labour Government invested £billions we did not have! If this was not debt, why are we still in "austerity measures"?

Sorry Michael, but 5 years of Labour government equals 50 years of debt repayment!

Strangely, although the next Government will be for a 5 year term, almost 3 of which will be post-Brexit, not ONE of the parties have said what they will do with the money we will no longer be paying the EU.  OK, the Lib Dems will continue to give this to the EU by stopping us leaving, the Labour Party will apparently pay whatever bill the EU gives us for leaving (albeit only partially leaving), but what about the Conservatives? Do they intend to continue to subsidise the EU at the present level???
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 25, 2017, 21:55:20 PM
But surely the last Labour Government invested £billions we did not have! If this was not debt, why are we still in "austerity measures"?

Sorry Michael, but 5 years of Labour government equals 50 years of debt repayment!



That was bailing the banks out. But that's another story.


Strangely, although the next Government will be for a 5 year term, almost 3 of which will be post-Brexit, not ONE of the parties have said what they will do with the money we will no longer be paying the EU. 


3 will be post Brexit? That's optimistic to say the least.

Didn't you listen to BoJo and Fromage? we are going to spend the money on the NHS   :laugh: ;D ::)

Seriously though, it's going to go on much the same things that the EU spends it on now. Science, farming, fisheries, research, environmental protection. etc.Plus what we have already committed to. In other words all the things we have to untangle ourselves from. 2 years? more like 10 if ever!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 26, 2017, 06:50:54 AM
But surely the last Labour Government invested £billions we did not have! If this was not debt, why are we still in "austerity measures"?
No argument from me there Mike, the reason they did that was to prop up failing banks who had embarked on risky lending deals.
The austerity policy is something else, it's a failed policy, we're more in debt now than we were 7 years ago, austerity hasn't worked and it's time to change the approach.
Investing in the economy to stimulate growth, that's the policy laid out by John McDonnell, and together with the attack on tax avoidance and tax evasion by the big multi national companies, it's a no brainer.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 26, 2017, 07:06:02 AM
John McDonnell denied that debt is involved when borrowing the money to nationalise companies.
He was quite right to do so, in terms of the rail companies he has said that the government will simply refuse to renew the franchises.
As we have already agreed it is not unusual to issue bonds to create the cash necessary, a perfectly legitimate business practice.
Using this cash to invest in the utilities, gas, electricity, water, taking back into government control the post office and running them for the benefit of the consumer. Utilising the profits these companies produce to pay back the bond purchasers, instead of lining the pockets of the multi nationals.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 26, 2017, 11:33:32 AM
Debt will be involved when buying the monopoly utilities such as water companies.

I accept that the railway industry is different, but that was not the example being discussed when John McDonnell denied that debt would be involved when buying companies to nationalise them.

This is all getting a bit more relevant now that it looks like Theresa May might actually lose the election .....   !!!!!!!!

I am beginning to wonder if she should quickly stand down in favour of someone like Michael Fallon or David Davies to lead the Tories ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 26, 2017, 13:04:44 PM
  Perfectly true that nuclear weapons are no deterrent against terrorist attacks, but they are an essential deterrent against nuclear or conventional attacks. 

Nationalisation.  I can say of my own knowledge that privatisation was a marvellous thing for the water industry
Where are these nuclear attacks going to come from one might ask, from terrorist organizations? It seems they have no fear of reprisals, as to die for a belief is considered a plus.
Certainly not from any of the major states, diplomacy has changed since the "cold war" ended, with countries like Russia, and China now firmly attached to the idea of world trade.
Defence should mean just that, not getting your retaliation in first as seems to be the idea of some western powers, diplomacy is the ultimate defence.

Your comments on Nationalisation is certainly true in so far as it relates to the water companies who have made £Billions in profits, which under public ownership would have been ploughed back into services and reduced costs to the consumer, and it seems have paid little in terms of corporation taxes.
Prices for water services have increased at an unacceptable level, some 40% since privatisation, and services certainly haven't improved at anything like that level.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on May 26, 2017, 15:56:00 PM
Well, Michael, I don't think we can trust in the good intentions of states such as Russia and China.  Power politics are as relevant now as they always have been.  Si vis pacem para bellum   - if you wish for peace, prepare for war.

The public sector water industry provided a terrible level of service and was starved of investment.  Privatisation has been a huge benefit for customers, who now get what they pay for in terms of reliability of supply, water quality, updated infrastructure and environmental improvements.  No publicly-owned industry has ever been satisfactory - just remember the quality of British Leyland cars, trying to get a telephone from the GPO, the state of BR's rolling stock...

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 27, 2017, 07:44:17 AM
Well, Michael, I don't think we can trust in the good intentions of states such as Russia and China.  Power politics are as relevant now as they always have been.  Si vis pacem para bellum   - if you wish for peace, prepare for war.

The public sector water industry provided a terrible level of service and was starved of investment.  Privatisation has been a huge benefit for customers, who now get what they pay for in terms of reliability of supply, water quality, updated infrastructure and environmental improvements.  No publicly-owned industry has ever been satisfactory - just remember the quality of British Leyland cars, trying to get a telephone from the GPO, the state of BR's rolling stock...
I'm not suggesting that all is well between major states, what I do say is that the threats are different, more sophisticated, cyber attack, manipulation of the money markets, and business competition.
We need therefore a different kind of defence, particularly on our home ground, the cuts in police numbers have greatly reduced our capacity to deal with home based terrorists, and we need to be less involved militarily in overseas conflicts.

Nationalised services were starved of proper investment and were bedevilled by inadequate management, much of this was a political policy to pave the way for the privatization, a similar tactic to that being being used by government with the NHS.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 05, 2017, 18:51:25 PM
Looks like Theresa May is about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, her decimation of public services has come back to haunt her.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 06, 2017, 00:46:17 AM
Anything could happen now ....

I know long-standing Conservative voters who have not bothered to send off their postal voting papers ....... 

Who believes any prediction poll now?

It seems that unless the Tories gain at least a few dozen extra seats, that Theresa May will face a challenge for the Tory Party leadership.

There is something to be said for weary Conservative voters seeing that a hung parliament means a Labour PM via a loose coalition etc and so actually going out to vote .... and then we all find that actually the result is quite a strong majority for the Conservative party.

Even so, Theresa May is badly damaged and I suspect she will simply face a challenge later, maybe after BREXIT is concluded and when she has maybe lost even more credibility ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 06, 2017, 10:25:00 AM
Neither May or Rudd look particularly safe whatever happens, Boris appears to have been side lined, Fallon has been made to look a fool by some of his pronouncements, makes one wonder who the Tories will chose as a new leader.
Conversely Jeremy Corbyn has grown in stature and after the election will continue as Labour leader, and probably as PM, although I accept that depends on how much influence the anti Corbyn stance of the main stream media influences voters.
Brexit is sill a major consideration for most voters, especially the younger ones, and JCs more conciliatory approach to the negotiations will appeal to them, as will the removal of tuition fees.
The disastrous policy statement on the dementia tax has done the Conservatives a good deal of harm, and May's track record on police cuts, both as Home Sec and PM will continue to haunt her.
All in all however I think we should probably discount the polls, as the unknown factor is the number of new and first time voters, but as ever it can go either way. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on June 06, 2017, 19:31:29 PM
Nearly Party time  [app] [app] [app] [app] https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=labour%20party
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 08, 2017, 19:22:25 PM
Well, I've taken my postal voting papers to the polling station after having decided that I am voting for a thoroughly good local MP (Dr Andrew Murrison) and certainly not for anyone who might help that disgusting traitor and terrorist sympathizer and old-fashioned socialist loony Corbyn become PM.


Looks like weak and wobbly Theresa May will get a decent majority though not a landslide ......

I expect to see the Tories at County Hall being less full of themselves as soon as the results sink in ........
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 08, 2017, 20:19:03 PM
You've been reading the Sun again then Russell, as Churchill said jaw jaw is better than war war. ;) and Andrew and his colleagues seem quite happy to deal with the Saudis one of the main funders of Isis terrorists. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on June 08, 2017, 21:41:49 PM
I hate right wing people who support a Government that supplies arms to Saudi who sponsors the terrorists yet won't support a Man of peace who won the Ghandi Peace award for 2013 says it all really right wing smear campaign that's all we see if not this time next time for sure.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 09, 2017, 10:17:36 AM

Looks like weak and wobbly Theresa May will get a decent majority though not a landslide ......


Wrong
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: charlie finbow on June 09, 2017, 12:42:31 PM
What a turn up for the books,  Dismay has not a leg to stand on to lead this country she will be slithering around leaving a trail like a snail and the bearded blunder will be courting the minority's to get his backside into No 10 ......................... exciting time ahead I think not.  [beer]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 09, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
Charlie like Russell you really have to stop reading the Sun ;)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 09, 2017, 15:23:24 PM
Jimmy Crankie has finally realised not everyone is Scotland wants Indyref2
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: charlie finbow on June 09, 2017, 18:40:05 PM
Michael.
   I do not read newspapers and as far as I am concerned, the Sun, is the strange unidentified object I have just seen high in the Sky outside my front window.

  Still well done Labour, you have benefited from the Blue Shambles, but, the real lesson is we dont trust any of you to run our green and pleasant land,

Of course only my humble opinion, mate.  Now where are my crayons, Matron said they were here...........la la la la.    [beer] [beer]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on June 09, 2017, 19:09:27 PM
It's pay back Jeremy has got the young on his side Canterbury ? Labour the old timer's are out of touch and think only about Brexit big mistake even the when the witch wanted their house the old  still voted for her the tide is turning we will leave but not the way the old people think it will be.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 09, 2017, 21:05:18 PM
As I predicted she shot herself in the foot.
Her speech earlier was obviously written weeks ago because it gave the impression that she won the election. Either that or she really is delusional.

So much for strong and stable. The Tories  have to be propped up by the DUP.

I predict another general election within 2 years.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Dana Scully on June 10, 2017, 09:16:07 AM
What a great result for Labour locally, in 2015 they had 6848 votes, but this week with Laura they managed to more than double the votes to 14,515, a +13 % swing, and came second, most of them seem to have come from the now defunct UKIP vote.

Even though Murrison managed to increase his percentage a little, it shows that Labour are a strong opposition round here and elsewhere.Well done to everyone involved :) both results below.

https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/dr-andrew-murrison/1466/election-results

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies/E14000954
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on June 10, 2017, 19:32:27 PM
what an awful result for the country, whatever your political views. Mrs May read it wrong and did not realise that Corbyn would come up with an agenda, although if challenged unsustainable would not and could not work but hit us with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit
we are now in negotiation with the DUP and this I believe to be immoral and dangerous.
I know Brenda from Bristol will not agree, but can Mrs May hold this together in the light of the exit bargain talks.
I fear another election very soon
only my view
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 11, 2017, 06:46:38 AM
Good grief!
If you think May negotiating with the DUP is dangerous, what chance is there with the EU !

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on June 12, 2017, 11:41:45 AM
Well, I've taken my postal voting papers to the polling station after having decided that I am voting for a thoroughly good local MP (Dr Andrew Murrison) and certainly not for anyone who might help that disgusting traitor and terrorist sympathizer and old-fashioned socialist loony Corbyn become PM.


Looks like weak and wobbly Theresa May will get a decent majority though not a landslide ......

I expect to see the Tories at County Hall being less full of themselves as soon as the results sink in ........

So How does Russell feel about the Tory Party being helped out by the DUP backed by Terrorist's and with such horrific views on women and abortion ??????
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 12, 2017, 13:34:49 PM
I'm still getting over the shock of the General Election result.

So, Theresa May blew it ....  big time ...

Strictly speaking, the Conservatives won the election as the largest party by some margin who get the first turn at forming an arrangement with others to obtain a working majority to govern with. But, Theresa May has abjectly failed in getting a mandate for herself - she has gone backwards and actually saddled the country with a WEAK AND WOBBLY government.

I personally have no real problem with the Conservatives working with any other elected MPs as long as no deals are done to adopt any offensive policies such as the DUP's anti-abortion rights position.  I actually agree with the DUP on their anti-gay marriage position. I see allowing gay marriage as deeply offensive and simply wrong. I have always said that marriage is between a man and a woman. I fully agree with all other rights being equal between sexes including the availability of Civil marriage.  But, I would never seek to make that a political issue when wearing any hat for any official position I hold as my view about the sanctity of marriage is not relevant to being a local councillor. I have gay friends who agree with me as they think that a civil ceremony is entirely adequate.

May simply has to go and I am sure the Conservatives will arrange this by this Autumn so that there is an orderly transition involving stabilising a working majority and then having a full members vote over the late Summer / Autumn to elect a new leader who I hope is either David Davis or Boris. I think Boris will handle the role well and after a year or so would be ready for a General Election. He can engage with the public - indeed he has none of Theresa May's obvious flaws such as being wooden, characterless, smug or wobbly.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on June 12, 2017, 16:10:51 PM
Boris is a Clown that will lead Clowns.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 12, 2017, 16:20:52 PM
BoJo as PM would give us all a good laugh at least. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

He would make a good double act with the President of the USA  [beer]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on June 19, 2017, 22:30:43 PM
THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
 If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country?

Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point.
In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.

The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem.

Already prices are rising in the shops, already inflation is on the up. Investors are holding back. Economic growth has slowed. And that’s before the Brexit negotiations have even begun. With her unnecessary general election, Prime Minister Theresa May has already squandered an eighth of the time available for them. How on earth an undertaking as complex as Brexit is supposed to be agreed in the time remaining is a mystery.

Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line.

The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government.

EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt.

British society is now more divided than at any time since the English civil war in the 17th century, a fact that was demonstrated anew in the general election, in which a good 80% of the votes were cast for the two largest parties. Neither of these parties was offering a centrist programme: the election was a choice between the hard right and the hard left. The political centre has been abandoned, and that is never a good sign. In a country like Great Britain, that for so long had a reputation for pragmatism and rationality, it is grounds for real concern. The situation is getting decidedly out of hand.

After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover
http://mobile2.derbund.ch/articles/59442e3cab5c3744ba000001 (http://mobile2.derbund.ch/articles/59442e3cab5c3744ba000001)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 20, 2017, 11:36:19 AM
It seems that some in the EU who hold these views are concerned for the continued existence of this undemocratic, unelected, neo liberal cartel, many who voted remain did so on the premise that the EU could be changed, the majority of British voters however felt otherwise, they voted to leave. The government has decided to back that view and negotiations have begun, the main concern now is that the split from Brussels should safeguard and maintain links but on our terms.
This may not be possible, but it is vital that these negotiations involve all political views and the final agreement is put before the British Parliament. All of the major political party's are split on the Brexit decision none more so than the current government, there is a long way to go but a settlement satisfying the EU and the British negotiators is possible.
Not "A hard Brexit" or a "Soft Brexit" but a negotiated settlement that maintains our links with our EU neighbours but allows us to legislate for this country's needs.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on June 20, 2017, 15:01:41 PM
Blimey, I agree with Michael!  Never thought I'd say that about a political issue.

I wonder where the relentlessly negative spiel quoted by Maxi came from.  The author should be ashamed of himself/herself for putting the worst possible and most one-sided spin on everything said.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on June 20, 2017, 22:29:07 PM
Quote
I wonder where the relentlessly negative spiel quoted by Maxi came from


A german newspaper translated into English.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 21, 2017, 10:19:50 AM


I wonder where the relentlessly negative spiel quoted by Maxi came from.  The author should be ashamed of himself/herself for putting the worst possible and most one-sided spin on everything said.

If anyone should be ashamed of what they have done it's Boris Johnson, Nigel Fromage. et al for spouting lies before the referendum and those who believed them!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 21, 2017, 12:17:41 PM


I wonder where the relentlessly negative spiel quoted by Maxi came from.  The author should be ashamed of himself/herself for putting the worst possible and most one-sided spin on everything said.

If anyone should be ashamed of what they have done it's Boris Johnson, Nigel Fromage. et al for spouting lies before the referendum and those who believed them!
Well that of course is true, aided and abetted by an extremely biased media, but there were quite strong and valid arguments for leaving the EU that did not get much coverage, and lies and half truths were told by both sides.
It was up to us as the voter to make up our own minds, which we did, rightly or wrongly, only the future can tell, but parliament must be given the right to decide when negotiations are complete if the end result is acceptable.
 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on June 23, 2017, 12:51:50 PM
http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/ (http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/)



Well mystic clegg seems to be bang on! Will have to tap him up for the lottery numbers
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Mike Hawkins on June 23, 2017, 13:46:35 PM
http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/ (http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/)



Well mystic clegg seems to be bang on! Will have to tap him up for the lottery numbers


He didn't foresee losing his seat in Parliament, did he?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: wanderlust on June 24, 2017, 11:21:43 AM
http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/ (http://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/will-wake-vote-leave/)



Well mystic clegg seems to be bang on! Will have to tap him up for the lottery numbers


He didn't foresee losing his seat in Parliament, did he?

Even though the rest of us did.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 24, 2017, 11:41:32 AM
Theresa May didn't foresee losing her commons majority - even though the rest of the country did !
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 24, 2017, 13:01:59 PM
To use the plight of Britain's domicile in EU countries as an issue, set against workers from the EU in this country, tit for tat, is as a starting point confrontational, and bound to fail, we need EU workers to staff our NHS and our farming needs.
Theresa May has in her first attempt at negotiating with the EU shown her weakness, confrontation is not the answer, co-operation is essential, Gove, Davis, and May seem to be trying to bully their way through these talks, it isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Mike Hawkins on June 25, 2017, 18:36:30 PM
To use the plight of Britain's domicile in EU countries as an issue, set against workers from the EU in this country, tit for tat, is as a starting point confrontational, and bound to fail, we need EU workers to staff our NHS and our farming needs.
Theresa May has in her first attempt at negotiating with the EU shown her weakness, confrontation is not the answer, co-operation is essential, Gove, Davis, and May seem to be trying to bully their way through these talks, it isn't going to work.

Do I take it then Michael, that you support the idea of EU citizens being allowed to remain here whilst our citizens living in the EU have no such guarantees?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on June 25, 2017, 20:10:35 PM
No Mike, I believe that the 4ml people, EU workers and Britain's living in the EU, deserve better than to be used as bargaining chips. After a year of uncertainty they need guarantees now, those who were part of these groups pre June 2016 should be given the same rights as they had prior to the referendum.

 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 25, 2017, 22:22:02 PM
Don't be silly. Send them all home and lock the borders!  [beer] British jobs for British people  [app]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Sector9 on August 16, 2017, 11:41:53 AM
So how do we feel Brexit is going?

Personally I always thought it was a daft move - but hey, at least we're getting that £350 million each week for the NHS....right?

Has anyone on here changed their opinion from how they voted in the referendum last year?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 16, 2017, 12:08:09 PM
So how do we feel Brexit is going?
Badly.
Quote
Has anyone on here changed their opinion from how they voted in the referendum last year?
No. Any sensible person foresaw this mess!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 16, 2017, 14:16:17 PM
BREXIT cannot be judged until it has happened.


Listening to the critics who constantly spout confused nonsense is pointless.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 16, 2017, 15:10:49 PM

Listening to the critics who constantly spout confused nonsense is pointless.

It seems to me that the only people spouting confused nonsense are the people who are supposed to be negotiating.



Personally I always thought it was a daft move - but hey, at least we're getting that £350 million each week for the NHS....right?



I know you're not that gullible but some people are and that is one of the main reasons we are now exiting Europe.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 16, 2017, 21:34:38 PM
Spouting confused nonsense... you been listening David Davis again Baldy?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on August 17, 2017, 10:10:55 AM
There is no doubt that confusion and nonsense seem to be the order of the day, failure to prepare for and report on any progress in negotiations has led to the remainers claiming that Brexit is too difficult and should be dumped.
The Lib Dems, Blairites, assorted Tories and Scots Nationalist claiming that democracy, ie the referendum result, should be ignored and a second vote on the issue allowed.
A simple fact is that politicians in this country and Europe have to accept that UK electors voted leave the EU and this democratic decision must be recognised.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 24, 2017, 10:04:31 AM
A simple fact is that politicians in this country and Europe have to accept that UK electors voted leave the EU and this democratic decision must be recognised.
So you believe Trump should last the full 4 years too?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on August 24, 2017, 11:12:42 AM
Nothing I can do about Trump.
Nothing the British Government Can do about Trump.
Nothing the party I support can do about Trump.
Not my problem.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 24, 2017, 13:40:44 PM
Nothing I can do about Trump.
Probably not

Nothing the British Government Can do about Trump.
They can soften some of his decisions though. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/06/can-uk-save-united-nations-donald-trumps-cuts
Nothing the party I support can do about Trump.
Not much that the party you support can do about anything.

Not my problem.

He could cause you lots of problems. Especially if you're a woman or a Mexican or a muslim.....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on August 24, 2017, 17:50:53 PM
Nothing at all is the right answer.

Our government under Theresa May has little or no influence on Trump.

The Labour Party in opposition has been effective in bringing about numerous changes in this governments actions, and when elected, which could be soon, will instigate policies that benefit the many not the few.

Trump hasn't been unable to get many of his policies adopted, but he has managed to create strong opposition, even within his own party.

All this of course is in the USA, and illustrates the point I make about democracy, Trump was elected on a manifesto which he seems unable to secure.

This Cameron government gave the country a choice in the referendum, the Brexiteers offered a policy that promised the electors that the country would leave the EU, the Brexit argument won. If the government can't achieve this then they should go back to the electors, not on a re-run of the referendum, but on a General Election.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 25, 2017, 11:32:07 AM
You miss my point.  The majority vote put Trump in and here it called for Brexit. Both were sold to the voters on a lie and both have since shown themselves to be bad ideas.

I once bought a Vauxhall. I thought it was a good idea. It was sugar. I got rid of it. Should I have kept it for 4 years? No.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on August 25, 2017, 13:01:43 PM
But governments have been elected on lies for years, it is up to the electors to decide how much of what is promised is achievable.
The EU has many faults and the voters decided that it was not fit for purpose, they voted leave, they may have voted leave for the wrong reasons, they may have believed Bojo and Nige's pronouncements, or they may have felt that the EU was just a capitalist club.
But the majority made up their minds that Britain should leave the EU, that was the question asked by the Cameron government, and that was the answer they received.
In the USA the majority of people believed that what Trump promised he could achieve, they like we made a decision, that they like us, must live with it, until they get the chance to vote again.

 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 31, 2017, 20:59:39 PM
In the USA the majority of people believed that what Trump promised he could achieve, they like we made a decision, that they like us, must live with it, until they get the chance to vote again.
Technically not, he lost the popular vote, just won more electoral college seats. Weird system.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 01, 2017, 07:51:12 AM
BREXIT TALKS CANNOT SUCCEED




http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-brexit-talks-cannot-succeed-11015205 (http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-brexit-talks-cannot-succeed-11015205)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 01, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Well Kier Starmer for the Labour Party believes that they can, but will need real commitment to negotiated settlement, and we should not to try to bully the other side into submission.
The UK is leaving the EU, the referendum was quite clear that that was the decision of the majority, rightly or wrongly.
We can remain partners and friends with the EU, but as an independent and self governing neighbour, as opposed to the member of an increasingly federal Europe.
 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 22, 2018, 23:54:00 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/second-referendum-only-way-out-13284100 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/second-referendum-only-way-out-13284100)


A vote on the final deal is gaining momentum  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 23, 2018, 15:08:22 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/second-referendum-only-way-out-13284100 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/second-referendum-only-way-out-13284100)


A vote on the final deal is gaining momentum  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45616308)


So is the likelihood of a snap General Election. Theresa May has been humiliated and discredited in just about every way possible. It actually stands to reason that she can't do worse than last year in a general Election, given her disastrous campaign where she avoided live TV debates and issued an absolutely awful manifesto which her own MPs had not seen beforehand ...

Just about the only chance she has got of ever getting credibility as a successful PM is if she ever won a General Election. I think she is going to deny any plan for a General Election and then suddenly call one quite soon .... just like she did in April last year ... only this time JC has been suffering from his anti-semite or pro-Palestinian, pro-Muslim, anti-Israel stance ....

Yup, I think that absolutely dreadful woman PM is going to actually do it ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 23, 2018, 17:57:10 PM
It's time for an election, not for a second vote on an issue that was decided at a referendum, not for the deal or no deal on how we leave, but for a government the people of this country want to take us through this procedure, or for one that withdraws article 50.
Let the political parties tell us how they intend to achieve Brexit or otherwise, lets get back to proper parliamentary democracy, not the cats breakfast that was Cameron's ridiculous referendum.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on September 25, 2018, 00:43:12 AM
It has to be a General Election I Voted Leave if given a second Ref I will vote remain this Brexit as been a waste of time thanks to the Tories in fighting.  I would never vote Tory even if Labour decided for a second ref what a waste of 2 years and all because the right wing hate Migrants be honest that is the problem the free Moment of people I didn't vote to leave because of Migrants I would like Free moment to working migrants to carry on.



See you at the polls soon people.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 25, 2018, 12:46:05 PM
You must have known free movement would cease if we left the EU.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: jimkerr on September 25, 2018, 13:21:07 PM
Yes I did but that was a part I didn't care if we let free moment continue I wanted our own decisions back on the future of this country not being part of the EU and the way forward and the Tories now still say we need migrants to continue to come so to me being in the EU Migrant or Outside the EU Migrant makes no difference. We will still have migrants.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 25, 2018, 14:10:55 PM
There was never a proposal to ban immigrants.


The Leave campaign was fundamentally about controlling immigration ourselves, not just letting any EU citizen in with Free Movement under EU rules.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 25, 2018, 17:36:37 PM
JimKerr. Why do you think immigration will stop. It has been going on for centuries and will continue. Before free movement was the cornerstone of the EU I worked in a couple of European countries without any problems, and Europeans worked in the UK. The difference after we leave will be that it is controlled. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 26, 2018, 10:26:18 AM
it is entirely correct that the referendum did not propose a ban on immigration, what campaigners did however was to suggest that it would be greatly curtailed, many who voted to leave the EU believed this.
Many people in the areas of Britain that were the most deprived mistakenly felt that this would help them, would provide more jobs, relieve the pressure on education and on the Health Service.
The real reason ofcourse was the neo-liberal policies of the EU that encouraged austerity in this country, and indeed across Europe
The real cure was to ditch these policies and to embark on a programme of public investment in our utilities, rail, water, and electricity, to take back control of these services, for the benefit of the many, not the profit of the few.
 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 29, 2018, 11:08:33 AM
Anology of Brexit

If 100 people went on a mystery coach trip, and 52% of the people on board Thought they were being taken somewhere nice and lovely, but the other 48% of the people knew that the coach driver was taken them to a cliff and driving over the edge do you think, as the driver got nearer and nearer to the cliff edge, it is the job of the 48% to keep warning the 52% that this is going to happen for sure, and to prevent the coach driver from going over the cliff edge. ???
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Mike Hawkins on September 29, 2018, 13:18:56 PM
Maybe the driver is paying too much attention to the 48%.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 29, 2018, 13:28:39 PM
Toyota plant boss says he may have to halt production for months if an agreement isn't reached.

Marvin Cooke told the BBC said the company might have to halt production for "months" if an agreement is not reached, potentially putting jobs at risk.

The plant produced 144,000 models in 2017.

Mr Cooke said: "If we crash out of the EU at the end of March the supply chain will be impacted and we will see production stops in our factory.

https://news.sky.com/story/grounds-for-optimism-over-potential-brexit-deal-business-secretary-greg-clark-says-11511984 (https://news.sky.com/story/grounds-for-optimism-over-potential-brexit-deal-business-secretary-greg-clark-says-11511984)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 29, 2018, 13:37:08 PM
How did the UK economy do since joining the EU? Very Very Well.


https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit (https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 29, 2018, 21:24:41 PM
Maybe the driver is paying too much attention to the 48%.

Lets hope so!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 29, 2018, 21:33:44 PM
Toyota plant boss says he may have to halt production for months if an agreement isn't reached.

Marvin Cooke told the BBC said the company might have to halt production for "months" if an agreement is not reached, potentially putting jobs at risk.

The plant produced 144,000 models in 2017.

Mr Cooke said: "If we crash out of the EU at the end of March the supply chain will be impacted and we will see production stops in our factory.

https://news.sky.com/story/grounds-for-optimism-over-potential-brexit-deal-business-secretary-greg-clark-says-11511984 (https://news.sky.com/story/grounds-for-optimism-over-potential-brexit-deal-business-secretary-greg-clark-says-11511984)

Brexiteers will dismiss this as scaremongering or project fear. But I know these company's have genuine concerns, I have been and are part of it and they don't know what to try and prepare for. they are totally blind and fumbling in the dark. they need clarity now and they're not getting it.

The whole affair is a bloody shambles. If we end up with BoJo the clown as prime minister it will serve all the people who voted leave right ! they will get what they deserve. Unfortunately the sane people get is as well  :P

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on September 30, 2018, 12:01:31 PM
a grand canyon has opened up in our country and the abyss below has grown ever wider, neither on either side can hear a word, or want to on the others views. the tabloids and propagandists are too fueling fear, we will try to carry on living our lives but we are baffled and betrayed by the toxic noises that abound, and its about time the madness stops before we destroy ourselves
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 30, 2018, 12:53:21 PM
Anology of Brexit

If 100 people went on a mystery coach trip, and 52% of the people on board Thought they were being taken somewhere nice and lovely, but the other 48% of the people knew that the coach driver was taken them to a cliff and driving over the edge do you think, as the driver got nearer and nearer to the cliff edge, it is the job of the 48% to keep warning the 52% that this is going to happen for sure, and to prevent the coach driver from going over the cliff edge. ???

Not a good analogy Maxi. The cliff face the coach driver is approaching is real, it's a physical structure, and everyone can see it is a cliff edge. The brexit cliff edge in the same analogy is debatable, and not everyone believes it exists. If we took your analogy and used it in a general election result, we could argue the following.

Labour win with 52%. The 48% who didn't vote Labour believe JC will take the UK over a cliff edge. Should we keep re-running the general election until there is a different outcome?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 30, 2018, 14:18:00 PM
a grand canyon has opened up in our country and the abyss below has grown ever wider, neither on either side can hear a word, or want to on the others views. the tabloids and propagandists are too fueling fear, we will try to carry on living our lives but we are baffled and betrayed by the toxic noises that abound, and its about time the madness stops before we destroy ourselves


True.


This is why there must not be any more referendums or never-endums about such a serious political topic. It should have been settled by our parliamentarians, but unfortunately The Labour Party has been more interested in the opportunity to create havoc and undermine the PM than they are in healing the country and helping the PM to negotiate a good BREXIT.


I am as disgusted with half the Conservative Party as I am with half the Labour Party. Although I think Corbyn is a disgusting traitorous terrorist-supporting communist who should be taken out by deepest and darkest parts of our secret services, his half of the Labour Party are actually the better half when it comes to BREXIT.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on October 01, 2018, 08:08:49 AM
Her Majesty's Loyal Oppositions job is to oppose, that's what they are doing, opposing the disastrous attempt by the government to achieve a creditable deal on leaving the EU.
The government of the UK is failing, they should therefore call an election and let the people decide who they trust to do this job, it's a no brainer.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 01, 2018, 22:40:43 PM
I think Corbyn is a disgusting traitorous terrorist-supporting communist who should be taken out by deepest and darkest parts of our secret services,

stop beating about the bush and say what you mean.  ;D
Title: Pound to crash, inflation to soar in 'no deal' Brexit – BoE warns
Post by: Maxi on November 28, 2018, 17:50:09 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/bank-of-england-no-deal-brexit-could-lead-to-economic-collapse-11566023 (https://news.sky.com/story/bank-of-england-no-deal-brexit-could-lead-to-economic-collapse-11566023)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on November 28, 2018, 18:52:33 PM
This is Project Fear on steroids going nuclear via news broadcasters who are concentrating on emphasising the very worst case scenario imagined which assumes that everything that can go wrong will go wrong.

It seems that the only risks that the worst case scenario missed out was the outbreak of a widespread plague and WW3.

I remember the 1989-91 recession when commercial property values collapsed by 50% as I was Group Investment Surveyor at Peel Holdings Plc selling off investments around the UK to keep the highly-geared group liquid. I did that and made a profit each year and kept the banks at bay when many similar property investment and merchant developer groups went bust. It was a rough time but lots of companies emerged fitter and better afterwards ...

It is going to be interesting to see what the BREXIT campaign leaders will say in response to these scare stories.

Three years ago, I nearly joined UKIP but changed my mind and stayed independent when the UKIP leadership was unable to provide any proper economic analysis of what would happen to the UK commercial property market as a result of BREXIT.  I always assumed there would be a hit in the sense of a hockey-stick shaped dip and then growth on the back of new trade deals across the world with old friends and commonwealth partners ...

Perhaps the best information to look at is the value of the £ in the currency markets straight after this Bank of England report. The Pound rose.  This says it all. Even the real experts don't take the report too seriously ... or think it will ensure that the worst case scenario does not occur ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on November 28, 2018, 19:25:59 PM
Boris has responded with a brief statement on Facebook:


The British economic establishment always gets it wrong. Wrong about joining the ERM, wrong about leaving it, wrong about joining the Euro, wrong about Project Fear after the referendum. They can't forecast 6 months out - why should we believe them over 15 years?

The world economy is changing. The opportunities for a dynamic modern economy like the UK are growing. Free from the corporatist EU, its anti-innovation decisions, & its rule by vested interests, we will grow not decline - and the freer we are the more we will prosper."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on November 28, 2018, 22:30:13 PM
Perhaps it is project reality, these are warnings by financial experts at the bank of England, you cannot dismiss them lightly.
We have only negotiated round 1 which is the divorce deal, their still is several years of a trade deal to negotiate, Theresa May is unlikely to get her deal through parliament, which then could lead to another election or putting the decision back to the people, and all the indications are that polls indicate the economic hit makes Brexit not worth it. And the public will vote to remain this time.

https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-think-brexit-not-worth-economic-hit-sky-data-poll-finds-11566038 (https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-think-brexit-not-worth-economic-hit-sky-data-poll-finds-11566038)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on November 29, 2018, 07:43:07 AM
Boris has responded with a brief statement on Facebook:


The British economic establishment always gets it wrong. Wrong about joining the ERM, wrong about leaving it, wrong about joining the Euro, wrong about Project Fear after the referendum. They can't forecast 6 months out - why should we believe them over 15 years?

The world economy is changing. The opportunities for a dynamic modern economy like the UK are growing. Free from the corporatist EU, its anti-innovation decisions, & its rule by vested interests, we will grow not decline - and the freer we are the more we will prosper."

Doesn’t say if he is going to back May’s deal does he.

BoJo is a clown living a privileged life throwing his toys out his pram when things don’t go his way.

Nobody believes or even cares what any politician says anymore because they all have their own selfish agendas to satisfy.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on November 29, 2018, 10:01:46 AM
Retweeted BBC Politics

Carney worked at 13 years at Goldman Sachs, Ex Governor Bank of Canada, G7 Minister, Chair of financial stability board, member of the Group of 30 an international body of leading financiers and academics. Studied at Harvard, St Peters&Nuffield Oxford, Jacob cannot count to 48

Probably applies equally to BOJO.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on November 29, 2018, 10:41:01 AM
people in such High profile positions surely shouldn't make such headline doom messages to the press. all this will do is continue the scare tactics, that fuel this country at the moment, equally, one senior politician supports Mrs  May and it grabs the headlines too.
Happy days! :D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on November 29, 2018, 15:22:47 PM
people in such High profile positions surely shouldn't make such headline doom messages to the press. all this will do is continue the scare tactics, that fuel this country at the moment, equally, one senior politician supports Mrs  May and it grabs the headlines too.
Happy days! :D

Not relevant?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on November 30, 2018, 10:40:07 AM


It seems that the only risks that the worst case scenario missed out was the outbreak of a widespread plague and WW3.

 



There’s always a small risk of that happening. Increased slightly maybe with a no deal Brexit?

Seriously. I don’t know why the people who wanted to leave are complaining so much. They’re getting what they voted for. There was only two boxes to tick, Yes or No. there wasn’t a box to tick saying Yes, But.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 16, 2019, 10:10:47 AM
With May's deal being rejected and the tabled vote of confidence in the government which will result in no change because the Tories will do what they do best and vote themselves to stay in power.

The next thing to do is appoint BoJo as negotiator, even if he doesn't want to, because he was one of the main instigators of this mess, and tie him to the negotiators chair until he strikes a deal acceptable to parliament.

Of course this will never happen (an acceptable deal I mean) but at least it will keep us in the EC for the forseeable future and stop BoJo the clown interfering in anything else!
Title: Airbus slams no-deal Brexit ‘madness’, threatens UK pull-out
Post by: Maxi on January 26, 2019, 20:00:53 PM
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/airbus-slams-no-deal-brexit-madness-threatens-uk-pull-out/ (https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/airbus-slams-no-deal-brexit-madness-threatens-uk-pull-out/)

Airbus warned on Thursday (24 January) it could shift future wing-building out of the UK in the absence of a smooth exit from the European Union, predicting “potentially very harmful decisions” for its British operations in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

In a direct appeal to Britain’s divided parliament to avoid such an outcome, CEO Tom Enders acknowledged there would be no immediate change in its industrial presence, but issued his sharpest warning yet that future jobs are at risk.

“The UK’s aerospace sector now stands at the precipice,” Enders said in a video released on Airbus’ website.

“If there is a no-deal Brexit, we at Airbus will have to make potentially very harmful decisions for the UK.”

The world’s second-largest aerospace group employs 14,000 people in the UK, including 6,000 at its main wings factory at Broughton, Wales, and 3,000 in Filton, western England, where wings are designed and supported.

Critics of previous warnings by Airbus have cast doubt on whether the France-based group would move significant operations out of the UK, arguing Broughton is an efficient factory and that the case for staying is buoyed by a weak sterling.

German-born Enders insisted Airbus was not bluffing, adopting a more partisan tone than in previous statements.

“Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong,” he said.
Title: How Did We End Up Brexiting Just To Stop The Far-Right Rioting
Post by: Maxi on January 26, 2019, 20:04:37 PM
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/how-did-we-end-up-brexit-fascist-far-right/ (https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/how-did-we-end-up-brexit-fascist-far-right/)

After two Conservatives warned we must leave the EU or the far-right will riot, James O'Brien asked why we're allowing fascists to dictate government policy.

Both Chris Grayling and Suella Braverman spoke of the rise of the far-right and warned of civil unrest if Brexit is delayed or stopped.


But James warned of just how dangerous that kind of appeasement could be.

Speaking on his LBC show, James said: "Imagine any other country that is enacting a policy proven to be in direct contradiction of the expectations of everybody who voted for it, 'we must enact it, otherwise the fascists will revolt'.

"That is government by terrorism, government by threat

"Chris Grayling was over the front page of one newspaper a couple of weeks ago and Suella Braverman made similar comments on Question Time.

"That's amazing. You've got senior, mainstream elected parliamentarians saying we have to do this, otherwise the fascists will revolt, the far-right will surge.
"Why on earth is Brexit something beloved of the far-right? And if it is, surely that's the point at which you ask yourself how you ended up on the same side as the far-right, the fascists that you supposedly fear.

"And how the hell did we end up ever contemplating enacting an unpopular policy, proven of being in direct contradiction of everyone who voted for it, we're going to do something we all know is going to be damaging and we've got to crack on with it because otherwise Oswald Mosley's heirs will be upset and angry?

"That's incredible, but it's the perfect illustration of the gaslighting of an entire nation."

Title: 'Fascist' Row As Theresa May Hints New Brexit Vote Could Spark Violence
Post by: Maxi on January 26, 2019, 20:09:19 PM
When did the Tory party start running away from fascists rather than standing up to them?”

Theresa May has sparked fury and ridicule after suggesting that a second Brexit referendum would trigger riots in the streets from Leave voters.

Speaking in the House of Commons, the prime minister for the first time raised the spectre of violence, declaring a fresh vote on quitting the EU could “damage social cohesion” by trashing faith in democracy.

Less than a week after suffering a historic defeat on her Brexit plan, May took a harder line than ever in rejecting the idea of a so-called “people’s vote” to give Britons a say on the deal with Brussels.

Angry Labour MPs said she was giving succour to “fascist” groups, while Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable wondered whether she was going to use troops to keep the peace.

In what appeared to be a new harder line to please her backbench Brexiteer MPs to win support for her deal, May told a packed Commons of the dangers of a new referendum stalling or reversing the 2016 decision to quit the EU.

“There has not yet been enough recognition of the way that a second referendum could damage social cohesion by undermining faith in our democracy,” she said.
Downing Street suggested that the PM had not been referring to street violence with her ‘social cohesion’ remark, but critics claimed her intention was clear.

Several MPs pointed out that far-right protestors have targeted referendum-supporting Tories like Anna Soubry recently, accusing them of being traitors.

Labour MP Peter Kyle asked May: “There is only an ultra small minority of very, very right wing people who are trying to undermine social cohesion in this country in order to prevent a people’s vote.

“When did the Tory party start running away from fascists rather than standing up to them?”

The PM said his remark was ‘beneath’ him, but rammed home her point that there would be public anger if the vote of 2016 was not delivered.

“Throughout my political career I have said when I have seen other countries have second referendums on decisions in relation to Europe – because it didn’t come out in the way that politicians at the time wanted it to come out – that it was hugely important that people accepted the result of the first referendum.

“This house overwhelmingly voted for that referendum, this House overwhelmingly voted to trigger Article 50. I believe we should follow through on those decisions.”
Asked what the collapse of social cohesion meant, a No.10 spokesman said: “There is a covenant of trust between the electorate and the government of the day.

“The PM’s firm belief is that it’s the government’s duty to act on the clearly expressed wishes of the electorate and obviously were that not to happen I think she’s saying that wouldn’t be and shouldn’t be without consequences.

“One of the points the PM has made in the past is about people, some of whom have participated in a democratic process for the first time in their lives, and they expect having given a clear instruction, that that will be delivered upon.

“Clearly it’s not unreasonable that there might be bad feeling or rancour or however you want to describe it if those people didn’t feel the instruction had been carried out.”

“I think she’s talking about the bond of trust that has to exist in a democracy between the electorate and the elected.”

But in the Commons, Lib Dem leader Cable pointed out that Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson put 3,500 troops on standby for Brexit emergencies.

“Could she clarify what their rules of engagement would be in the event that they faced angry and violent demonstrators, and would they be armed?”

May replied the troops would relieve others undertaking roles such as ‘guarding of certain sites’.

Labour MP Catherine McKinnell told HuffPost UK: “Theresa May is playing a dangerous game with her warnings about social cohesion.

“Brexit has divided the country, but what would undermine faith in our democracy is if MPs force a Brexit plan through on which the country has no say and is not supported by either remain or leave voters.

“A new vote would be different from the last one, focused on a real Brexit deal rather than a vague promise which can’t be delivered, with a different campaign talking about a different Britain. The answer to far-right thugs threatening our democracy must always be more democracy, not less.”

Chuka Umunna, a leading campaigner for a People’s Vote, told May: “It would be wholly wrong to allow any group in society to threaten and intimidate us into not following our democratic processes and into not holding votes.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-under-attack-for-suggesting-riots-will-erupt-if-second-brexit-referendum-goes-ahead_uk_5c45fa1ce4b0bfa693c60aa6 (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-under-attack-for-suggesting-riots-will-erupt-if-second-brexit-referendum-goes-ahead_uk_5c45fa1ce4b0bfa693c60aa6)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 27, 2019, 09:37:37 AM
We should leave because that is the will of the majority. To not leave would be un-democratic. Just imagine if the the situation was reversed and remain were in the majority, but government decided to leave anyway.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on January 27, 2019, 19:42:59 PM
Spot on Shizzy....I think May should listen to Mr Dyson....walk away from negotiations....the EU will come to us after all it is them that will miss Britains payout...bloody ridiculous that negotiations are still continuing...and as for a 2nd vote...the 'remainers'  suck it up buttercups you did not win the vote
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on January 27, 2019, 20:21:01 PM
In the newspapers today is an article on martial law could be declared if we have a no deal, this is not what we voted for.

But brexiteers want to carry on and push British manufacturing and the economy off the edge of the cliff, just so that they can have their blue passports. And their sovereignty back which we never lost anyway.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-whitehall-officials-look-at-prospect-of-imposing-martial-law-in-event-of-nodeal-a4049751.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-whitehall-officials-look-at-prospect-of-imposing-martial-law-in-event-of-nodeal-a4049751.html)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on January 28, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
Spot on Shizzy....I think May should listen to Mr Dyson....walk away from negotiations....the EU will come to us after all it is them that will miss Britains payout...bloody ridiculous that negotiations are still continuing...and as for a 2nd vote...the 'remainers'  suck it up buttercups you did not win the vote


 [app] [app] [app]       [beer]       ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on January 28, 2019, 13:18:03 PM
I don't normally bother with the Book of Faces, but this popped up on my newsfeed recently, which I thought was of interest.  Topic raised on BBC Question Time --

" On BBC Question Time, a member of the audience in Winchester made a particularly pertinent point: The 52%-48% referendum result wouldn’t even be sufficient to change the constitution of your local golf club.

And it’s true. In most democratic clubs and institutions, a result of 52% to 48% wouldn't be enough to change their constitutions.

Indeed, in democratic countries that hold referendums on important issues, a super majority would usually be required to effect major change. A result of 52%-48% wouldn’t cut it.

Nor would only 37% of the electorate voting for change enable that change to take place.

▪ Why is 37% significant? Because that was the proportion of the electorate that voted for Brexit – a minority.

The majority of voters either voted for Remain or didn’t vote.

In most democratic countries that hold referendums, those who don’t vote do count – they count as a vote for the status quo. Otherwise it would mean a minority dictating the future of a country.

(And that’s exactly what’s happening with Brexit – a minority has been given power to decide that Britain will go ahead with Brexit, even though most of the UK didn’t specifically support Brexit. Indeed, two out of the four countries of our union of the United Kingdom specifically voted against it.)

There seem to be many double standards with the 2016 referendum.

▪ Just 37% of the electorate were allowed to impose Brexit on Britain. And yet, only 37% of the members of UKIP, or the Labour or Tory parties, wouldn’t be sufficient to change their constitutions.

▪ Under UK law, just 37% of a trade union’s members wouldn’t be sufficient to call a strike.

▪ Just 37% of MPs wouldn't be sufficient to call for an early general election (two-thirds of all MPs are required for that).

As the wise woman in the QT audience said about the Brexit result:

“That’s why we continue to want to talk about it, and that is why with all the extra information that people now have, that they didn’t have at the time, there are many people who would change their vote.”

Panellist and ardent Brexiter, the LBC973 presenter Nick Ferrari, amazingly agreed with the woman in the audience that a result of 52% to 48% wouldn’t be enough to change the constitution of a golf club.

“You’re right,” he said.

But he then added that since the referendum, there had been a general election “and more than 80% of the electorate voted for parties that wanted to deliver Brexit.”

It’s nonsense, of course, to conflate the referendum result with the 2017 general election.

People didn’t specifically vote Tory or Labour in that election because they supported Brexit. For sure, most Labour voters and members don’t want Brexit, and many voted for Labour because they had had enough of Conservative rule.

Furthermore, Theresa May only called a surprise, snap general election because she said she wanted to increase her majority to give her a “mandate” for her version of Brexit.

Instead, she lost her majority entirely.

Voters didn’t give her a “mandate” – but Mrs May has carried on with her Brexit plans as if the 2017 general election had never happened.

What’s more, if in Mr Ferrari’s view, the referendum result wasn’t sufficient to change the constitution of a golf club, but the decision could be endorsed or reversed by a general election, then it means that the referendum result of 2016 is not set in stone.

Brexit could be democratically undone, if that’s what voters want. And over 50 polls since the 2017 general election all show just that: the majority of UK voters don’t want Brexit.

But the government, and the opposition, are not taking any notice. In golfing terms, they’ve whiffed it.

Maybe it would be better if your local golf club ran the country. It would be a darn sight more democratic than it is now. "
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 28, 2019, 15:45:52 PM
You are right Pugwash, the government should have said that the vote had to be above say 60% for arguments sake. However they didn't (probably because Cameron was so cocky he thought he'd win) so that is that. No point going over what should have been done.
Title: No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers
Post by: Maxi on January 28, 2019, 17:57:30 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls)

Did you vote for this shelves empty at supermarkets.???
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on January 28, 2019, 22:07:04 PM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on January 29, 2019, 06:35:12 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls)

Did you vote for this shelves empty at supermarkets.???

This is exactly the type of hogwash remainers want to scare the country with trying to sway the opinions of the leavers to think they made the wrong choice to leave.
At the end of the day those countries selling billions of pounds worth of foods to our country are still producing & need to sell to us as their largest consumers! So no, there will not be a shortage of food they will still  be able to do deals direct with our supermarkets & they will not want to loose our business.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 29, 2019, 09:27:47 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748?fbclid=IwAR3e3mUG74gw1yyGydkUee3nx31bhlJiTBE_LJ1B96MfErYdMSFLvHZ1Cls)

Did you vote for this shelves empty at supermarkets.???

So all the countries outside the EU have empty supermarket shelves? The world according to the remainers
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 29, 2019, 09:29:05 AM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.

A good time for supermarkets to buy produce from British farmers, and fishermen (any snowflakes n here can replace men with person or gender neutral)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 29, 2019, 09:40:16 AM


So all the countries outside the EU have empty supermarket shelves? The world according to the remainers

What a load of bollocks. No one has said that at all. It is a fact that 70% of our fresh fruit and veg currently comes from other EU countries and without any trade deals this perishable commodity MIGHT be in short supply for a while.  Who knows??
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 29, 2019, 09:41:56 AM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.

Yeah, because everything was far better in the 50's and 60's

Stop living in the past!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 29, 2019, 10:07:42 AM


So all the countries outside the EU have empty supermarket shelves? The world according to the remainers

What a load of bollocks. No one has said that at all. It is a fact that 70% of our fresh fruit and veg currently comes from other EU countries and without any trade deals this perishable commodity MIGHT be in short supply for a while.  Who knows??

Maxi implied it, and yes you are right with 70% of fresh fruit and and veg coming from outside the EU our shelves won't be empty. Just proves Maxi is talking bollocks.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 29, 2019, 10:09:41 AM
You still got it wrong. 70% of our fruit and veg comes from other EU countries. As of today we are still in the EU.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on January 29, 2019, 11:05:02 AM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.

Very little  remains of the British Fishing Fleet and even less of the RN Fisheries Protection Squadron, so the UK EEZ fisheries will be wide open to be plundered by foreign vessels unencumbered by any EU quota system.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on January 29, 2019, 14:40:11 PM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.

Very little  remains of the British Fishing Fleet and even less of the RN Fisheries Protection Squadron, so the UK EEZ fisheries will be wide open to be plundered by foreign vessels unencumbered by any EU quota system.
The British Fishing Fleet has indeed been reduced but it is still sizeable, and indeed is still one of the largest fleets in Europe. The UK is a net importer of fish, but the UK fleet has the second-largest total catch (in terms of landed weight) and the second-largest fleet size (in gross tonnage terms) in the EU.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on January 29, 2019, 15:00:51 PM
Will it be so bad to go back to seasonable fruit and veg, to return to home and locally grown food, to seafood caught by a British Fishing Fleet in British waters?
Perhaps we'll see a reduction of the food thrown away by supermarkets.
Yeah, because everything was far better in the 50's and 60's
Stop living in the past!!
Not living in the past, but in fact looking forward to a different future where Britain is able to decide how it governs itself. To decide what laws it makes, and how it proceeds to change the disaster that has been the last ten years of austerity free from neo liberal policies and decisions made by the unelected commissioners of the European Union. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on January 29, 2019, 15:43:50 PM
things were far better in the Fifties and Sixties..... Bollocks
just came out of Food rationing, then along came Suez and we nearly had petrol rationing, television went off air at 9am, 3 day working week. !! stikes all the time, Whapping/Coal/Steel/ poll tax riots!!!!!! oh thee of short memories. I know its a little of topic but of course being a child of the sixties i can recall the awful memories, as well as the wonderful memories of what could have been called a golden era, of music, moon landings, the scaling of Everest, the first Heart transplant, winning the Footy world . just a different wau at looking at the abyss that awaits!!!!!!!
Title: Asda, Sainsbury's and McDonald's warn UK will run out of food under 'no-deal
Post by: Maxi on January 29, 2019, 18:24:40 PM
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/doomsday-no-deal-brexit-will-13919871?fbclid=IwAR1SVwuqLmxtlcoN4VjPWmye8k-5Xd7U71E-riP1Zh6hCy5x-DODADN2nPw (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/doomsday-no-deal-brexit-will-13919871?fbclid=IwAR1SVwuqLmxtlcoN4VjPWmye8k-5Xd7U71E-riP1Zh6hCy5x-DODADN2nPw)


Retail chiefs have warned of food shortages and ­crippling price rises in the chaos of a no-deal Brexit.

We are all going to be a lot poorer
Title: Riots will hit streets after Brexit and UK will be ‘unstable’ for years,
Post by: Maxi on January 29, 2019, 18:30:23 PM
https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/28/riots-will-hit-streets-brexit-uk-will-unstable-years-eu-report-warns-8404836/?ito=social&fbclid=IwAR2F_l-ybWUdpJ2HHUPtNubB3ezaB877Qc6Mp6001PrrC3kKtZVVb63TZGg (https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/28/riots-will-hit-streets-brexit-uk-will-unstable-years-eu-report-warns-8404836/?ito=social&fbclid=IwAR2F_l-ybWUdpJ2HHUPtNubB3ezaB877Qc6Mp6001PrrC3kKtZVVb63TZGg)


A secret EU report has painted a grim and worrying picture of life in Britain after Brexit – with violence on the street and ‘instability’ for decades. The report by intelligence officials also claims that there will be independence referendums in Scotland and Northern Ireland within 18 months of Brexit. The report, by senior intelligence officials, also warned there may be violence in the event of ‘no deal’ or a second referendum.
Yesterday, it was revealed that the Civil Service is looking at the possible imposition of martial law after a no-deal Brexit.
The assessment is that violence is almost inevitable no matter what.‘They are worried that if the current deal goes through the right-wing will kick off. If there’s no deal everybody will object and kick off. If there’s a second referendum, the right will kick off. ‘The right kicking off is causing most concern.’









Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on January 29, 2019, 18:36:47 PM
BREXIT EXPLAINED

David Cameron made a promise he didn't think he'd have to keep to have a referendum he didn't think he would lose.

Boris Johnson decided to back the side he didn't believe in because he didn't think it would win. Then Gove, who said he wouldn't run, did, and Boris who said he would run, said he wouldn't, and Theresa May who didn't vote for Brexit got the job of making it happen.

She called the election she said she wouldn't and lost the majority David Cameron hadn't expected to win in the first place. She triggered Article 50 when we didn't need to and said we would talk about trade at the same time as the divorce deal and the EU said they wouldn't so we didn't.

People thought she wouldn't get the divorce settled but she did, but only by agreeing to separate arrangements for Northern Ireland when she had promised the DUP she wouldn't.

Then the Cabinet agreed a deal but they hadn't, and David Davis who was Brexit Secretary but wasn't said it wasn't what people had voted for and he couldn't support what he had just supported and left.

Boris Johnson who hadn't left then wished that he had and did, but it was a bit late for that.

Dominic Raab became the new Brexit secretary.

People thought Theresa May wouldn't get a withdrawal agreement negotiated, but once she had they wished that she hadn't, because hardly anybody liked it whether they wanted to leave or not.

Jacob Rees-Mogg kept threatening a vote of no confidence in her but not enough people were confident enough people would not have confidence in her to confidently call a no confidence vote.

Dominic Raab said he hadn't really been Brexit Secretary either and resigned, and somebody else took the job but it probably isn't worth remembering who they are as they're not really doing the job either as Olly Robbins is.

Then she said she would call a vote and didn't, that she wouldn't release some legal advice but had to, that she would get some concessions but didn't, and got cross that Juncker was calling her nebulous when he wasn't but probably should have been.

At some point Jacob Rees Mogg and others called a vote of no confidence in her, which she won by promising to leave, so she can stay. But they said she had really lost it and should go, at the same time as saying that people who voted Leave knew what they were voting for which they couldn't possibly have because we still don't know now, and that we should leave the vote to Leave vote alone but have no confidence in the no confidence vote which won by more.

The government also argued in court against us being able to say we didn't want to leave after all but it turned out we could.

She named a date for the vote on her agreement which nobody expected to pass, while pretending that no deal which nobody wants is still possible (even though we know we can just say we are not leaving), and that we can't have a second referendum because having a democratic vote is undemocratic. And of course as expected she loses.

Some people are talking about a managed no-deal which is not a deal but is not no-deal either.

Thank goodness for strong and stable government.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on January 29, 2019, 18:49:05 PM
Of course the EU are going to try & put the wind up Britain if they leave....they are gonna loose a very large pay packet! They are sugarting bricks!
Brussells don't want May to re negotiate purely for pocket lining reasons
As for us trading direct with other countries 3 simple business rules apply...demand, supply & profit
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 29, 2019, 18:50:44 PM
BREXIT EXPLAINED

David Cameron made a promise he didn't think he'd have to keep to have a referendum he didn't think he would lose.

Boris Johnson decided to back the side he didn't believe in because he didn't think it would win. Then Gove, who said he wouldn't run, did, and Boris who said he would run, said he wouldn't, and Theresa May who didn't vote for Brexit got the job of making it happen.

She called the election she said she wouldn't and lost the majority David Cameron hadn't expected to win in the first place. She triggered Article 50 when we didn't need to and said we would talk about trade at the same time as the divorce deal and the EU said they wouldn't so we didn't.

People thought she wouldn't get the divorce settled but she did, but only by agreeing to separate arrangements for Northern Ireland when she had promised the DUP she wouldn't.

Then the Cabinet agreed a deal but they hadn't, and David Davis who was Brexit Secretary but wasn't said it wasn't what people had voted for and he couldn't support what he had just supported and left.

Boris Johnson who hadn't left then wished that he had and did, but it was a bit late for that.

Dominic Raab became the new Brexit secretary.

People thought Theresa May wouldn't get a withdrawal agreement negotiated, but once she had they wished that she hadn't, because hardly anybody liked it whether they wanted to leave or not.

Jacob Rees-Mogg kept threatening a vote of no confidence in her but not enough people were confident enough people would not have confidence in her to confidently call a no confidence vote.

Dominic Raab said he hadn't really been Brexit Secretary either and resigned, and somebody else took the job but it probably isn't worth remembering who they are as they're not really doing the job either as Olly Robbins is.

Then she said she would call a vote and didn't, that she wouldn't release some legal advice but had to, that she would get some concessions but didn't, and got cross that Juncker was calling her nebulous when he wasn't but probably should have been.

At some point Jacob Rees Mogg and others called a vote of no confidence in her, which she won by promising to leave, so she can stay. But they said she had really lost it and should go, at the same time as saying that people who voted Leave knew what they were voting for which they couldn't possibly have because we still don't know now, and that we should leave the vote to Leave vote alone but have no confidence in the no confidence vote which won by more.

The government also argued in court against us being able to say we didn't want to leave after all but it turned out we could.

She named a date for the vote on her agreement which nobody expected to pass, while pretending that no deal which nobody wants is still possible (even though we know we can just say we are not leaving), and that we can't have a second referendum because having a democratic vote is undemocratic. And of course as expected she loses.

Some people are talking about a managed no-deal which is not a deal but is not no-deal either.

Thank goodness for strong and stable government.


That sums it up pretty well Maxi

 ;D ;D [app] [beer]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on January 30, 2019, 19:17:40 PM
things were far better in the Fifties and Sixties..... Bollocks
just came out of Food rationing, then along came Suez and we nearly had petrol rationing, television went off air at 9am, 3 day working week. !! stikes all the time, Whapping/Coal/Steel/ poll tax riots!!!!!! oh thee of short memories. I know its a little of topic but of course being a child of the sixties i can recall the awful memories, as well as the wonderful memories of what could have been called a golden era, of music, moon landings, the scaling of Everest, the first Heart transplant, winning the Footy world . just a different wau at looking at the abyss that awaits!!!!!!!

Historical memories askew here... most of the untoward events cited didn't happen in the Fifties and Sixties.  The Wapping episodes were in the Eighties, the "Poll Tax" riots in 1990, the coal strikes in the Seventies and Eighties, the three-day week in 1974, the great epidemic of public sector strikes in 1978-9.  I still have my petrol coupons from 1974.

Unusually, I agree with Michael on most of this discussion!  A clean break followed by trade on WTO rules would, I think, be the best outcome.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on January 30, 2019, 22:29:37 PM
3 Brexit options make your choice john gl and baldy want the most loss to the country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on January 30, 2019, 23:57:25 PM
Short-term economic loss (if any - the pessimists have been proved wrong so far) against the massive permanent gain of sovereignty.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on January 31, 2019, 08:02:32 AM
Short-term economic loss (if any - the pessimists have been proved wrong so far) against the massive permanent gain of sovereignty.


 [app] [app] [app]


Spot on John GL!


I would add that the other medium - long term gain is highly likely to be enhanced/ faster economic growth than the EU because we will be tying our economy ever closer to the world's fastest growth markets which are mainly in Asia but also with the other emerging markets around the world .... and also and especially with the USA which is still the most powerful economy in the world and whom we are utterly reliant on for our military security ...


If we left ourselves tied to the EU, that would guarantee low economic growth for ever ... or until even the remoaners - even the thickest of them (I mean the disingenuous left wing economists who spout nonsense because they are paid to do so ...) - could see that it just makes perfect sense to ditch the EU because it is holding us back ...



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 31, 2019, 12:25:43 PM
I really struggle with how remainers justify ignoring the result of the referendum. Are they undemocratic people per se, or just happy to ignore democracy when it isn't something they don't agree with.

In find it ironic that Gina Miller (arch remainer) tried to scupper Brexit but may have inadvertently caused us to leave with No Deal. Had she not battledfor parliament to have the final say, Mrs May deal would have been rubber stamped a few weeks ago. Instead with no consensus in parliament we are likely to leave with no deal, bet she didn't envisage that scenario.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on January 31, 2019, 12:41:52 PM
But surely the whole issue is that the result was so marginal, therefore we are a nation divided currently
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 31, 2019, 13:06:51 PM
I don't think anyone is ignoring the democratic result of the referendum. It was conducted in such a way that its validity gets called into question because no one really knew what they were voting for and most votes were cast based upon lies by democratically elected members of parliament. (and other twats)

Would another referendum be undemocratic? We have had general elections closer together than any new referendum that could be held now. How far apart do elections / referendums have to be before they are deemed undemocratic?

Surely the public are allowed to change their minds especially if 30 months has passed since the last vote..

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on January 31, 2019, 13:26:06 PM
i was a firm Remainer, but due to all the stuff and nonsense now being paraded by Twat sand self attention seeking politicians, does make me feel that a referendum on what we are more wiser to, maybe a solution for once and all
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 31, 2019, 13:36:48 PM


Surely the public are allowed to change their minds especially if 30 months has passed since the last vote..



The problem with that argument is that referenda could go on forever, every time the EU make a significant change should we then have a referendum because some people may have changed their mind again?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on January 31, 2019, 13:50:05 PM
maybe, but there has never been such a important vote that will in one way or another affect generations, for better or worse. if we had a second vote, with everyone clear about what they are voting for, then so be it
if the split was as marginal as it was, then we still have the divide, but at least we could all move on through troubled waters and try and work together.

we are a great nation, we are economically strong and of course we will eventually come out the other side, one way or another, but personally i would rather have stayed where we were..... Thats my own feeling.!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 31, 2019, 14:13:43 PM
I wonder if remainers would have entertained a second referendum if the vote originally went their way?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on January 31, 2019, 15:47:08 PM
the great unknown..... who knows!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on January 31, 2019, 16:35:43 PM
I could make an educated guess
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on January 31, 2019, 16:58:13 PM
I don't think anyone is ignoring the democratic result of the referendum. It was conducted in such a way that its validity gets called into question because no one really knew what they were voting for and most votes were cast based upon lies by democratically elected members of parliament. (and other twats)

Would another referendum be undemocratic? We have had general elections closer together than any new referendum that could be held now. How far apart do elections / referendums have to be before they are deemed undemocratic?

Surely the public are allowed to change their minds especially if 30 months has passed since the last vote..

Didn't know what we were voting for?  David Cameron made it absolutely clear that a Leave vote meant voting for leaving the EU including the customs union and single market.  He predicted all sort of dire consequences, and made sure everybody saw the predictions by sending a leaflet to every household.  Both sides lied, or at least misled - it's what politicians do.  As to validity, I don't remember anyone saying that a general election should be re-run because the result was close, or because the elected Government has become unpopular (think Wilson in 1968 or Thatcher in 1981).

The idea of holding another referendum because the elites don't like the result of the last one is typical of the EU, and part of the reason why so many voted Leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 31, 2019, 18:59:15 PM
Politians are like Nappies. They need changing often and for the same reason.
We all know that.
The majority of people who voted to leave didn’t have a clue what the consequences of leaving the single market or customs union would be. If you asked anyone who voted leave why they voted that way, you would get a different answer every time. Probably give you an answer that they hadn’t thought of at the time!

I’m not sure why you think those who voted remain and resent the result are elites. Far from it. I would say those wanting to leave are the elites! After all they are probably mostly the wealthiest able to ride the storm. And typical of most Tories who only care about themselves and their wealthy friends.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on January 31, 2019, 20:55:09 PM
The "Project Fear" propaganda told us that a Leave vote would bring about economic calamity.  The majority voted Leave nonetheless.  No doubt there were many reasons, including sovereignty, immigration and dislike of unelected Eurocrats.

The "elites" I have in mind are the metropolitan chattering classes and big business leaders.  They tend to regard Leave voters as uneducated bigots.  I occasionally see The Guardian and that's very definitely its tone. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on January 31, 2019, 22:08:31 PM
The "Project Fear" propaganda told us that a Leave vote would bring about economic calamity. 

The term 'project fear' was coined by the leavers trying to discredit those who really know.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 01, 2019, 07:35:30 AM
Not sure that's right Bob, these same experts told us there would be economic disaster by not joining the Euro. In hindsight probably the best decision not to join it. It certainly end in the economic disaster that was predicted.

In addition not all experts or business leaders predict an apocalypse, there are plenty that see it will be a challenge short term but the prospects and opportunities will be good for the country. Of course both sides will roll out 'experts' that suit their agenda, but it's not correct to say all experts and business leaders are universally against Brexit.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 01, 2019, 10:56:23 AM
There are different types of "experts". I prefer those who are paid by serious financial institutions for their advice, because they will be sacked if they get their advice wrong, or those who have created serious businesses.

I dismiss the generally left-wing intellectuals who have plenty to say but who are as good as unemployable for any serious business or bank.

When it comes to the Bank of England, it is generally hopelessly caught up with trying to listen to all views including the crazy stuff from politicians who have no clue .... including the government itself which is often too cautious for its own good (Conservatives) or too irresponsible with money and always spends more than is realistically safe (labour), so it often comes out with half baked nonsense especially when the Governor himself is really a political appointment who knows he needs to say what the Prime Minister wants or he'll be leaving soon ...

Ruth Lea is my preferred economist.
Lord Digby Jones, Tim Martin and Sir James Dyson are my preferred Industrialist / Entrepreneurs
David Buik is my preferred financial market commentator. 
These people have a clear track record of success engaging with business and getting things correct.

I'm struggling to think of a perfect politician but I am starting to be very impressed with anything and everything Caroline Flint MP (Labour former cabinet member) says about BREXIT. I see her as a likely Labour leader when the ridiculous nonsense of Corbynism collapses ...
Ok .... I admit I admire Jacob Rees Mogg for almost everything he says on anything at all though I can't abide his utterly ridiculous and irresponsible church which is full of paedophiles and which deliberately tries to ban contraception in a cynical ploy to increase its membership ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 01, 2019, 21:38:13 PM
Sir James Dyson...really?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9R4Y9gz/dysonsing.jpg)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 01, 2019, 22:47:43 PM
But he's not leaving the UK. He is in fact continuing to grow his business base of staff and research in the UK whilst also expanding in Asia. All he is doing is moving his place of registration of his HQ to Singapore to help strengthen his Asian activities where he expects the strongest future growth to occur.


This is someone who actually knows what he is doing and who employs thousands of UK staff and is generating hundreds of millions of £s in taxes ..... not only corporation tax but mostly through VAT paid on his goods and income tax paid on vast amounts of wages he pays  ...
Title: 'No jobs will be lost due to Brexit' claims Lord Digby Jones in heated debate
Post by: Maxi on February 02, 2019, 09:37:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erhAFINz7vU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erhAFINz7vU)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 02, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
He's right and he explains himself perfectly well.  Emma is picking at a list of examples in a hurry and in a way where he is not given the chance to answer and explain each one where jobs are moving abroad or at risk. Most of them are at risk  because of the uncertainties of BREXIT which are mostly down to the Remoaners working with the EU to over-complicate and slow down progress with a BREXIT deal because they are trying to stop it rather than trying to help things move smoothly forward.

There is a big difference between jobs being lost because of BREXIT happening (and when businesses know the terms of any deal) and jobs being lost beforehand due to the uncertainty caused by remoaners making everything more difficult and slow.

In any event, most of the jobs mentioned are actually at risk because of other factors such as diesel cars not selling as well as before due to the general diesel emissions scandal and disel cars being banned from some city centres etc or made to pay more tax ...

Another point would be that actually our UK employment rate is still going up not down overall (seasonally adjusted) ignoring the occasional month when it blips the other way. Our unemployment rate is now at a low point which has not been seen for decades ....
Title: Nissan to cancel X-Trail plan in fresh Brexit blow
Post by: Maxi on February 02, 2019, 16:37:35 PM
Nissan will drop another bombshell into the heart of Britain's car manufacturing ‎industry next week by announcing the cancellation of plans to manufacture its X-Trail model in the UK.

https://news.sky.com/story/nissan-casts-further-gloom-on-car-industry-with-x-trail-blow-11625885 (https://news.sky.com/story/nissan-casts-further-gloom-on-car-industry-with-x-trail-blow-11625885)

Brexit SHOCK: A THIRD of UK firms set to relocate in the event of no deal       

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1081417/no-deal-brexit-news-theresa-may-uk-business-no-deal-Leave-EU-referendum (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1081417/no-deal-brexit-news-theresa-may-uk-business-no-deal-Leave-EU-referendum)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 01:43:13 AM
Lots of factors going on here including BREXIT uncertainty and especially the fact that Nissan is part of the Renault-Nissan partnership in which both companies are largely owned by the other with ultimate ownership in France and the French Government holding a significant share ....

On the whole, I'd put this move down mainly to EU politics and currying favour with the French Government who are anti-BREXIT, especially given the timing. In reality, Nissan will make final decisions after seeing what happens in April.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 03, 2019, 08:58:57 AM
Not Project Fear anymore, but Brexit reality.
David Cameron Quote before referendum.Stay in for the trade, jobs and livelihoods," he added, saying an exit would "trash" the British economy.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2016/06/02/British-PM-Cameron-to-voters-Leaving-EU-would-be-harmful-madness/1911464908958/ (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2016/06/02/British-PM-Cameron-to-voters-Leaving-EU-would-be-harmful-madness/1911464908958/)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 09:01:40 AM
 ;D ;D ;D


That really is Project Fear regurgitated


Nothing new here ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 03, 2019, 09:55:12 AM
Sir James Dyson...really?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9R4Y9gz/dysonsing.jpg)


I think this actually proves Baldy's point. Sir James sees the future in the emerging economies of the East, not the EU. If he was worried about Brexit he would be moving his HQ to an EU country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 03, 2019, 11:19:54 AM
Dyson's doing what he always does and that is look after number one.

He is keeping his research and development in the UK because he knows, and we all know, the best engineers, innovators, designers and inventors in the world are British. We are the best at manufacturing as well but with quality comes price which is why he has moved his manufacturing to Malasia - cheap labour. Look for Dyson quality to drop. He knows that which is why he is saying his future markets are in Asia where they are used to poor quality products.

Him moving his HQ to Singapore is nothing to do with Brexit. It's in line with most big company bosses ,purely selfish.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 03, 2019, 12:21:38 PM
Nissan will move all of their production to Japan on the x trail car where they wont have to pay tariffs when they export to countries which have a deal with the eu, They invested in the Uk as a gateway to Europe.
7000 job losses is not project fear it will be reality.

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable said Nissan's withdrawal could be a turning point in Brexit uncertainty, and said it showed that big companies were "very seriously reconsidering their future here".
"I'm afraid that where Nissan leads the others, Toyota, Honda, BMW, the rest of them, we're going to see a down scaling of their operations in the UK," he said.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 03, 2019, 16:08:24 PM
Nissan will move all of their production to France


Nope, the production is going to Japan. Ironic that remainers often criticise the Brexit campaign for peddling lies, but seem to be happy to spread misinformation themselves.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 03, 2019, 16:57:30 PM
Not sure if Maxi had a typo or not but..

Yes, Nissan are moving production to Japan because japan and the EU have just started an economic partnership. why wouldn't they want to trade with the EU. Easier to do that now for them. Too much uncertainty about any future deal the UK could do with the EU.

Job losses are a certainty. Whether the leavers deny it or not.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 03, 2019, 17:18:15 PM
There will be job losses, the same as there will be job gains. Only time will tell if there are more gains than losses.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 18:08:40 PM
Nissan will move all of their production to Japan ...


This is deeply misleading.

They are talking about the production of a new car model.

Instead of introducing it as an extra model manufactured in the UK, they are simply keeping it in Japan.

This is almost a non-story.

If they were moving the production to another EU country instead of the UK (because it is leaving the EU), THAT would be a genuinely interesting story indicating a bad consequence of BREXIT.

However, BREXIT has not yet happened and Nissan have not yet confirmed their last word on this matter ...

This is all typical Remoaner nonsense .........   Just give it a rest. You lost the referendum.  Suck it up Snowflakes ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 03, 2019, 18:10:33 PM
Quote
Only time will tell if there are more gains than losses.

Very few businesses are saying they will now invest in the uk.But lots have said they are considering moving out of Uk British aerospace one of many.

But Liam fox has announced today The international trade secretary says not having a deal would put the economy under unnecessary turmoil.

He also said "It seems to me we have got to guard against two things. One is an irrational pessimism that says that everything will be a catastrophe and irrational optimism which says everything will be okay.

"The truth lies between the two."

https://news.sky.com/story/leaving-eu-without-a-deal-is-survivable-liam-fox-11627019 (https://news.sky.com/story/leaving-eu-without-a-deal-is-survivable-liam-fox-11627019)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 18:21:43 PM
Most business leaders are focussed on short-term objectives and they hate uncertainty and they prefer to avoid BREXIT.  Obviously, they are deferring major investment decisions until after BREXIT.

Ignore what all the remoaners lie on and on about ....

The business decisions taken after BREXIT when the terms are known (ie. WTO or EU-UK terms) will be relevant, not bollocks said in the run up to BREXIT ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 03, 2019, 18:32:07 PM
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51555049_10157304541660809_741352479601459200_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=d1e450a585bb1aeb76fa73e7c3e9b59f&oe=5CB325D4)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 18:36:58 PM
Democracy is based on simple majority voting.





Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 03, 2019, 19:39:43 PM
Not sure what your point is Maxi, we know the vote was close, but even one extra vote is a majority. Weird how people struggle with the concept of democracy when the vote doesn't go their way.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 03, 2019, 20:18:33 PM
Not sure what your point is Maxi, we know the vote was close, but even one extra vote is a majority. Weird how people struggle with the concept of democracy when the vote doesn't go their way.

How ironic.

Actually
Ref1 - Thursday 5 June 1975
Whinge and moan for 40 years then
Ref2 - 2016

That your concept of democracy?   Try this (http://www.brexitshambles.com/the-legal-loophole-that-defies-democracy-in-britain/), a long read , but worthwhile.
 And as to lies, what about the £350M a week for the NHS to become available in April?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 03, 2019, 20:52:42 PM
The EU did not exist in 1975. The referendum then was about the free trade area called the Common Market - not an EU superstate which is moving towards further integration with even more countries lining up to join .... even Turkey (an Islamic country moving towards dictatorship) ...

The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ...

As for the £350m on the side of a bus designed by the official Leave campaign, it was no worse than the utter bullsugar in the leaflet distributed by the official government remain campaign using tax payers money for Operation Fear ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 03, 2019, 21:31:47 PM
The EU did not exist in 1975. The referendum then was about the free trade area called the Common Market - not an EU superstate which is moving towards further integration with even more countries lining up to join .... even Turkey (an Islamic country moving towards dictatorship) ...
The thing is, Turkey can only join the EU is every member agrees. By your logic we'd be better staying in to stop them joining.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 04, 2019, 09:58:57 AM



The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ...



You should read it.



As for the £350m on the side of a bus designed by the official Leave campaign, it was no worse than the utter bullsugar in the leaflet distributed by the official government remain campaign


At least the bullsugar distributed by the official remain campaign was legal. Unlike the illegal leave campaign!

Which, by the way would have rendered any general election vote void..
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 04, 2019, 16:38:27 PM

 an EU superstate which is moving towards further integration with even more countries lining up to join .... even Turkey (an Islamic country moving towards dictatorship) ...



Talk about scaremongering, bullsugar, propaganda. That takes the biscuit!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 04, 2019, 17:14:43 PM
Talk about scaremongering, bullsugar, propaganda. That takes the biscuit!
But that how Brexiters are angling things now. They have to make the EU more scary than Brexit, which takes some doing!
Title: No recession from BREXIT
Post by: baldy on February 06, 2019, 07:47:41 AM
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-won-t-send-uk-into-recession-6ptg0nkdh?shareToken=af976d726189577be40cb36346cb20b0 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-won-t-send-uk-into-recession-6ptg0nkdh?shareToken=af976d726189577be40cb36346cb20b0)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 06, 2019, 08:13:45 AM
https://twitter.com/ruthleaecon/status/1092762497315209216?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ruthleaecon/status/1092762497315209216?s=21)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 06, 2019, 08:19:30 AM
http://www.cityam.com/272748/fewer-city-jobs-expected-move-due-brexit-despite-deepening (http://www.cityam.com/272748/fewer-city-jobs-expected-move-due-brexit-despite-deepening)
Title: Re: Never ending BREXIT
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 06, 2019, 09:13:27 AM
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-won-t-send-uk-into-recession-6ptg0nkdh?shareToken=af976d726189577be40cb36346cb20b0 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-won-t-send-uk-into-recession-6ptg0nkdh?shareToken=af976d726189577be40cb36346cb20b0)

The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ... ;D

https://twitter.com/ruthleaecon/status/1092762497315209216?s=21 (https://twitter.com/ruthleaecon/status/1092762497315209216?s=21)

The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ... ;D

http://www.cityam.com/272748/fewer-city-jobs-expected-move-due-brexit-despite-deepening (http://www.cityam.com/272748/fewer-city-jobs-expected-move-due-brexit-despite-deepening)

The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ... ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 06, 2019, 09:14:49 AM


The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ...


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on February 06, 2019, 09:49:44 AM


The long bullsugar article is a propaganda piece = not worth reading ...


Yes we get it, but it does show that arguments from whatever side are now being ignored by the other and indicates that a second referendum/peoples vote will be a complete waste of time. Most peoples opinion is set the result stands, lets get on with it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 06, 2019, 09:51:29 AM
Bob

You seem to have lost any ability to say anything rational.

The long bullsugar propaganda article was literally on an anti-BREXIT campaign website with propaganda written largely without proper sourcing or references to respected independent sources.

You cannot credibly say that The Times or City AM are anything other than quality respected journalists who publish well-researched articles based on facts.

As for Ruth Lea, she was simply referring to the facts shown in the City AM article.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 06, 2019, 10:07:48 AM
https://twitter.com/Change_Britain/status/1092681730723586049
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 06, 2019, 11:26:25 AM
Bob

You seem to have lost any ability to say anything rational.



I think I have lost the will to live!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 06, 2019, 12:04:56 PM
Yes we get it, but it does show that arguments from whatever side are now being ignored by the other and indicates that a second referendum/peoples vote will be a complete waste of time. Most peoples opinion is set the result stands, lets get on with it.

Dismiss this as bullsugar propaganda if you will but it is from the gov.uk website. So fairly credible IMO

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

I accept that we will leave the EU and another referendum would be stupid. I do argue though  against leaving under a 'no deal' scenario that a lot of Brexiteers want to do. A 'no deal' exit will in my opinion harm this country as well as other countries we currently trade with. Read the article without dismissing it as bullsugar and you will understand why.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 07, 2019, 12:15:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4JPj4Vjm90
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 07, 2019, 16:24:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4JPj4Vjm90

What an arrogant twerp!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 09, 2019, 11:02:33 AM
You cannot credibly say that The Times or City AM are anything other than quality respected journalists who publish well-researched articles based on facts.
Thats the thing with The Times. If you read it daily you'll find it allows opposing views in opposing articles, in order to try and give both sides. In yesterday's paper (not read todays yet) I can pull two articles, one saying Brexit=great and one saying Brexit=sugar.
Title: Brexiteer Dyson and his move to Asia.
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 11, 2019, 13:26:27 PM
Dyson's doing what he always does and that is look after number one.

He is keeping his research and development in the UK because he knows, and we all know, the best engineers, innovators, designers and inventors in the world are British. We are the best at manufacturing as well but with quality comes price which is why he has moved his manufacturing to Malasia - cheap labour. Look for Dyson quality to drop. He knows that which is why he is saying his future markets are in Asia where they are used to poor quality products.

Him moving his HQ to Singapore is nothing to do with Brexit. It's in line with most big company bosses ,purely selfish.

https://www.consumerreports.org/stick-vacuums/dyson-stick-vacuums-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/


I have been proved right. Dyson wont care though as his market is now outside Europe and now in Asia.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on February 13, 2019, 19:05:15 PM
in response to Baldy and who he looks to as inspiration, i would have to say that having to deal with M r Dyson and his massive land acquisition in the uk, he is sees, profit and takes it wherever it may laie
My two Big Guys that I give credit to to

Mr  Joseph bamford, owner of JCB. remains loyal to the uk and
Mr Frank Williams of formula 1 , based in wattage, just been there today and although Mercedes build the engine he was resolute the Williams is a UK affair.the factory is so worthy of a visit, and if you wanted a day out.... do it
I am sure there are many others, but Baldy had his few, i thought these needed to be added
Title: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: Maxi on February 13, 2019, 22:06:11 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480 (https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480)

I expect The Brexiteers will say they were already planning it.

13000 employed by Ford in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: baldy on February 14, 2019, 07:44:36 AM
https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480 (https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480)

I expect The Brexiteers will say they were already planning it.

13000 employed by Ford in the UK.


I think Ford mean what they say on the basis that if a no deal occurs and WTO terms apply, then tariffs would be added by the EU to cars imported from the UK, thus making the cars uncompetitive and harder to sell in the EU countries ... so Ford may as well move the plants to the EU to avoid these EU import tariffs.

However, I think the calculation being made by clean brexiteers who prefer a clean ("no deal") BREXIT is that the EU will quickly realise that their own car makers are being hit harder through tariffs applied to their imports to the UK .... and this will affect german car imports to the UK hardest of all .... so the thinking is that the Germans would quickly force the EU to agree with the UK a free trade deal that avoids any tariffs both ways.

In conclusion, Ford are issuing a clear warning about what would happen if there is a "no deal" BREXIT and if WTO tariffs are not quickly removed soon after.

personally, I think the UK needs a clean BREXIT to then force free trading terms between the UK and EU .... which makes complete sense because the EU sells to the UK over a hundred Billion of £s worth of goods and service more than we sell to them.

The worst problem here is that most MPs have no business or commercial sense at all and don't understand the need to negotiate hard on the basis that your own side has options including walking away from a bad deal. The UK clearly has a great hand to play because walking away will damage the German car businesses more than our own .... and it is perfectly reasonable and sensible to expect the Germans to force the EU to straighten everything up so that their current trade advantage of a huge trade surplus with the Uk is kept.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 14, 2019, 07:49:22 AM
in response to Baldy and who he looks to as inspiration, i would have to say that having to deal with M r Dyson and his massive land acquisition in the uk, he is sees, profit and takes it wherever it may laie
My two Big Guys that I give credit to to

Mr  Joseph bamford, owner of JCB. remains loyal to the uk and
Mr Frank Williams of formula 1 , based in wattage, just been there today and although Mercedes build the engine he was resolute the Williams is a UK affair.the factory is so worthy of a visit, and if you wanted a day out.... do it
I am sure there are many others, but Baldy had his few, i thought these needed to be added



I certainly agree with the late Joseph Bamford's son, Anthony Bamford (or Baron Bamford), who is clearly a successful and highly knowledgeable entrepreneur and BREXITEER who regularly says that the UK can easily trade on WTO terms and can agree free trade terms with the EU.

I don't follow any sports person very closely and don't see sport as relevant to BREXIT or international trade negotiations. Indeed, I think sport is largely unaffected by BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 14, 2019, 08:33:14 AM




personally, I think the UK needs a clean BREXIT to then force free trading terms between the UK and EU .... which makes complete sense because the EU sells to the UK over a hundred Billion of £s worth of goods and service more than we sell to them.



But we already have free trading terms with the rest of the EU..
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 14, 2019, 08:38:22 AM
https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480 (https://news.sky.com/story/ford-reportedly-steps-up-preparations-to-move-production-out-of-uk-11636480)

I expect The Brexiteers will say they were already planning it.

13000 employed by Ford in the UK.

Yeah, or label it as anti-Brexit propaganda or "Project Fear Mk 6 on Steroids" whilst they bury their heads in a big pile of sand with a union jack sticking out the top and Rule Brittania blaring from the rooftop dreaming of days gone by when Britain ruled the world and Atlas's of the world were mostly coloured pink!!
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: baldy on February 14, 2019, 08:55:28 AM


personally, I think the UK needs a clean BREXIT to then force free trading terms between the UK and EU .... which makes complete sense because the EU sells to the UK over a hundred Billion of £s worth of goods and service more than we sell to them.


But we already have free trading terms with the rest of the EU..


True, but this is not the reason for BREXIT. The reasons are many, not least uncontrolled immigration and the consequences for our over-run services and housing crisis plus the ability to create free trade deals with other countries around the world where the EU has not been able to so far ...
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 14, 2019, 09:20:46 AM


personally, I think the UK needs a clean BREXIT to then force free trading terms between the UK and EU .... which makes complete sense because the EU sells to the UK over a hundred Billion of £s worth of goods and service more than we sell to them.


But we already have free trading terms with the rest of the EU..


True, but this is not the reason for BREXIT. The reasons are many, not least uncontrolled immigration and the consequences for our over-run services and housing crisis plus the ability to create free trade deals with other countries around the world where the EU has not been able to so far ...

But a very good reason for not leaving without a deal!
Title: Re: Brexit: Ford 'steps up preparations to move production abroad'
Post by: Al on February 14, 2019, 11:28:04 AM
this is not the reason for BREXIT. The reasons are many, not least uncontrolled immigration and the consequences for our over-run services and housing crisis plus the ability to create free trade deals with other countries around the world where the EU has not been able to so far ...
Services are over-run 'cos they are under funded. Immigration form EU countries is generaly of people that work and pay tax to fund services. Non-EU immigration is more the drain and brexit does not change that.

As for trade deals, there is zero evidence that any country is keen to do deals with the UK that they would not have done with the EU. None. Indeed as reported yesterday, more counties are pushing for better terms on UK trade deals than the UK previously had through the EU, which does not bode well for non-preEU deals does it!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 15, 2019, 22:19:11 PM
Well I think it’s pretty conclusive. All the arguments as to why it’s better to leave the EU have been proven as wrong. But..

Que sera sera

We’re leaving.

Glad I’m not just starting out in life.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 16, 2019, 03:24:01 AM
Nonsense. I have stopped responding to every little Remoaner's whinge because it all just goes around in circles.


At the end of the day, Remainers lost the referendum. Suck it up ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 16, 2019, 16:24:14 PM
At the end of the day, Remainers lost the referendum. Suck it up ...
Labour lost the last election. Lets never have anpther one again.
May won the last leadership election but yet there was another vote recently.

You have run out of reasoned argument Baldy. You lose.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 16, 2019, 19:19:45 PM
Right ... I have a bit more time just now to remind you why BREXIT is a good idea and why LEAVE won the referendum ...

First of all, though, I'd remind you that a normal vote is not the same as a referendum. Referendums are meant to be for major decisions and they are not meant to be repeated .... though we know that sometimes this understanding is abused by the losing side especially when the EU itself is involved.

Votes for party leaders are expected to come along at various intervals depending on the constitution of the respective parties.

In simple terms, BREXITEERS wanted to leave for various reasons (whether you agree or not):

*  To help reduce immigration from EU countries and replace the free movement of labour required by the EU with a more controlled form of immigration that focuses more on who we need for particular skills etc rather than just allowing anyone to come whenever they like. Many unskilled folk in the UK were also particularly keen to reduce immigration from the EU where they were losing out on jobs because immigrant labour was simply cheaper or at the minimum wage and so were undercutting our unemployed UK residents .... 

*  To help grow our economy faster in the long run based on better access to faster growing overseas markets via the newly independent UK (being out of the EU) being able to strike free trade deals with old friends and former allies etc across the world in a way that better suits our national heritage and buccaneering spirit. I accept this will not happen overnight and will involve a short term dip whilst the economy adjusts AND (I regret) because the MPs (most of the idiots that hold this status) have been fouling up the whole BREXIT process by arguing and bickering instead of putting their shoulder to the wheel to help get preparations and negotiations for BREXIT done.

*  To regain back control of our sovereignty .... including laws etc ......

*  To get back control of our fishing grounds so that we can negotiate fairer sharing with other fishing grounds that our sea fisherman want to fish in ...

*  To stop paying vast amounts of money towards the EU that we never get back (eg. huge subsidies spent on inefficient farming in France etc) ...

This list is not exhaustive, but its enough to explain why Leave won and why it was a clear and simple positive step for the country ..... after the mess made by the utter incompetents at parliament has been straightened up ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 16, 2019, 19:50:34 PM
You forgot to mention that great big lie Baldy. The one that was illegally (i.e.they broke the law) funded by the Vote Leave group that according to the courts persuaded enough people to vote to leave tipping the balance.

Yes, I’m talking about the £350Million a week paid to the NHS.

On top of that, referendums are not legally binding. The government  can choose, by law, to ignore the result.

The biggest incompetent in government was Cameron who actually called a referendum even though most people didn’t have a clue of the consequences of their vote.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 16, 2019, 22:37:52 PM
I did not forget the idea that was on the side of the official Vote Leave campaign bus, which was that one advantage of leaving the Eu was that we could then decide how we spend a vast sum of money that is currently spent in accordance with EU rules.  In fact, my last main bullet point was that we would stop paying vast amounts of money that we do not get back from the EU.

I think it is true that the exact sum quoted on the bus was controversial because it was saying that £350m a week of our money which goes to the EU, instead of being spent by the EU could instead be spent by the UK on its NHS.   The remain campaign claimed that this was misleading or a lie because if you deduct money the Uk does get back as, for example, grants to projects in the UK, the net sum available to talk about as a gain after BREXIT to spend would be much less.

When I studied it all at the time, I was confident that the £350m was a true figure for the total gross money a week given by the UK to the EU, but it was not the net figure that would be gained upon BREXIT.

In reality, what is happening here is that the details are not being spelt out and all the slogan meant was that £350m was being spent by the UK under the control of the EU. It failed to say that we get a large chunk back and then suggested that the same monies could be spent on the NHS.

In reality, the Remain campaign shot itself in the foot by picking at the details because the whole point was that a f@&$ing $h!t load of money is being given to the EU and there is a really large chunk that we don't get back. Frankly, the exact net figures are totally irrelevant and any dick arguing about exactly how many hundred £m is simply ramming home the point that no-one really understands how big £350m or £100m per week is and anyone who thinks about how large this is will be will be well hacked off that it happens (regardless of the exact number of hundreds of £ms.

Basically, the Leave campaign chose a good point to campaign on and the exact figures are really superfluous. And every time a di£khead Remoaner argues about it, they just shoot themselves in the foot further.

It was not a lie. It was a fudge designed to draw attention to the big idea that a massive $h!t load of money was being spent and not returned to the UK as a result of being in the EU, money that could be spent on other important things such as the NHS.

As for the idea that Vote Leave had any unfair advantage, the official Remain campaign was a stitchup with a large amount of public money spent on propaganda including the Government's own Project fear leaflet that was delivered to every household with a registered elector ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 17, 2019, 09:40:10 AM

When I studied it all at the time, I was confident that the £350m was a true figure for the total gross money a week given by the UK to the EU, but it was not the net figure that would be gained upon BREXIT.

In reality, what is happening here is that the details are not being spelt out and all the slogan meant was that £350m was being spent by the UK under the control of the EU. It failed to say that we get a large chunk back and then suggested that the same monies could be spent on the NHS.



It was not a lie. It was a fudge

A blatant lie Baldy. everybody knows.

Anyway, you missed the point I was making in that the vote leave campaign went over the spend budget allowed by law by quite a margin and actually got off lightly by the courts fining them a paltry amount.

The same court also concluded that due to the overspend on telling lies etc. they persuaded enough voters to vote to leave thereby tipping the vote in their favour.

In conclusion, the referendum should have been deemed null and void and re-run..

As i said in a previous post, leaving with no deal will be a disater for all.
Title: Honda set to close Swindon car plant
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 18, 2019, 14:53:20 PM
Honda set to close Swindon car plant

The Japanese car maker will shut the plant in 2022 but retain its European headquarters in Bracknell, Berkshire.

Brexit is understood to be a factor in the decision, with the car maker concerned about the imposition of new tariffs after the UK leaves the EU



They obviously haven't heard about Baldy's plan  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 18, 2019, 15:28:00 PM
Yeah right. It’s not my plan, obviously.

As for why Honda in Swindon might close, it will be interesting to hear and see a full analysis of the reasons, but BBC News is already reporting that quite a few reasons exist relating largely to global trading conditions and that the Japanese company plans to consolidate all their production back in Japan ... which I take as a clear reflection of the fact that most sales growth is now expected to be in Asia and they may as well manufacture all their cars there.

I remember when Honda decided to set up in Swindon in 1985 because at the time I was working as a commercial property agent specialising in High Tech business space in Swindon as a graduate trainee for what is now called JLL. That office has now closed.  The local business community was cock a hoop with the news that Honda was going to open a large factory ...

I wonder what Honda would do with their huge factory, which is on the old South Marston Airfield.  There will be plenty of businesses lining up to reuse this space, not least because of easy access to the M4 and the rest of the UK from there ...  it even has its own railway line connecting to the main London - Bristol line.

Sometimes, businesses just move because someone else has already offered to use their site and pay lots for it, thus making the move not just painless but actually profitable if the new site will actually cost less  ....   I will be fascinated to see which business ends up on the same site ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 18, 2019, 16:27:17 PM
Bob, as you are linking every job loss to Brexit, are we to assume that after 29th March all jobs created will be as a result of Brexit?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 18, 2019, 16:35:15 PM
I'm not linking any job losses to Brexit. Merely posting what the media are saying. You can assume what you like Shizzy.

But I don't see any big car manufacturers wanting to move their plants into the UK because they will be easier able to sell them abroad, do you?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 18, 2019, 16:36:39 PM
A pointless post then
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 18, 2019, 16:51:03 PM


I wonder what Honda would do with their huge factory, which is on the old South Marston Airfield.  There will be plenty of businesses lining up to reuse this space, not least because of easy access to the M4 and the rest of the UK from there ...  it even has its own railway line connecting to the main London - Bristol line.



Sounds ideal for a large car manufacturer - oh wait!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 18, 2019, 16:57:40 PM
It could be any type of manufacturing ... but probably not ship building as it is unlikely that anyone would finance a Swindon - Southampton ship canal ...


Maybe aircraft or electric cars ...  or even trains ...


Prefab housing might be a goer ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 18, 2019, 17:19:04 PM
A pointless post then
Welcome to the forums!  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 18, 2019, 17:31:40 PM
Anyone who thinks car manufacturing will continue as it has done is deluded. It is inevitable that car plants in their current formats will close, not just in the UK but around the world. Of course remainers will jump all over this and convince themselves it is proof of what was foretold.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 18, 2019, 17:44:13 PM
Is a new EU-Japan trade deal to blame?

The EU and Japan recently struck a trade deal which lowers tariffs on both parties' car exports to zero.

James Atwood, deputy editor of Autocar magazine, said this could be a big factor behind Honda's decision.

"It allows Honda to produce their cars in Japan where most of their plants are and then ship them to the EU without having to pay the import tariffs they have been, which does reduce one of the reasons for needing a plant in the UK," he told BBC News.

BBC business editor Simon Jack says the trade deal certainly "means a dwindling rationale to base manufacturing inside the EU".

He said: "Production at Swindon has been in decline for some time and is currently running at about half its capacity - another strike against it. But, having said that, Japanese companies are very long term investors.

"Sony and Panasonic moved their European headquarters to the EU. In each case, the rationale was slightly different. But many in Japan feel failure to provide Brexit certainty have loosened the ties that used to bind the two countries."

Just remember folks, this, Nissan, Airbus, Flybmi is just project fear, move along, nothing to see, leave now, wto etc etc

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603
 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 18, 2019, 19:21:53 PM
Anyone who thinks car manufacturing will continue as it has done is deluded. It is inevitable that car plants in their current formats will close, not just in the UK but around the world. Of course remainers will jump all over this and convince themselves it is proof of what was foretold.
Fundamentally I agree. Honda had already remodelled their factory to cope with the down turn of demand.The tax on diesel cars hasn't helped either and without continuity of their supply chain from other EU countries guaranteed it was the last straw. Also as Maxi says the trade deal that Japan and the EU has just struck was the decider. Whether they will admit that or not remains to be seen.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 18, 2019, 20:59:59 PM
After supporting Brexit, Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, has announced plans to move to Monaco. The 65-year-old who is the CEO of the chemical firm Ineos and has an estimated fortune of £21 billion. He said during the 2016 referendum that he believed Britain would prosper outside of the European Union but isn’t sticking around after Brexit. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

-Brexiter: Jim Ratcliffe, UK’s richest man, plans move Monaco
-Brexiter: James Dyson moves company Singapore
-Brexiter: John Redwood advises investors to put money abroad
-Brexiter: Jacob Rees-Mogg firm opens funds Dublin
-Brexiter: Nigel Lawson seeks French residency

https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135 (https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 19, 2019, 08:44:50 AM
Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 09:42:32 AM
Is a new EU-Japan trade deal to blame?

The EU and Japan recently struck a trade deal which lowers tariffs on both parties' car exports to zero.

James Atwood, deputy editor of Autocar magazine, said this could be a big factor behind Honda's decision.

"It allows Honda to produce their cars in Japan where most of their plants are and then ship them to the EU without having to pay the import tariffs they have been, which does reduce one of the reasons for needing a plant in the UK," he told BBC News.

BBC business editor Simon Jack says the trade deal certainly "means a dwindling rationale to base manufacturing inside the EU".

He said: "Production at Swindon has been in decline for some time and is currently running at about half its capacity - another strike against it. But, having said that, Japanese companies are very long term investors.

"Sony and Panasonic moved their European headquarters to the EU. In each case, the rationale was slightly different. But many in Japan feel failure to provide Brexit certainty have loosened the ties that used to bind the two countries."

Just remember folks, this, Nissan, Airbus, Flybmi is just project fear, move along, nothing to see, leave now, wto etc etc

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603
 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47282603)

Honda has now confirmed that BREXIT has nothing to do with this decision.

Your post is basically a pile of nonsense - its just throwing a pile of unconnected points together in an unsubstantiated and illogical way.

It is your own personal attempt to stir up Project Fear, Maxi.

FlyBMI failed because of too many businesses chasing the same customers in the market. There will be more budget airline failures to come and most will blame increasing fuel costs rather than their own incompetence at pitching their business strategy correctly for the market they think they are in.

Airbus has confirmed that they have so many orders for new planes going many years into the future that they have no plans to cut their workforce in the UK and that its current concerns are simply about keeping the flow of business and supply chain flow as smooth as possible. They are simply expressing current whines about possible supply chain disruptions during the current BREXIT uncertainty. I think this is perfectly natural given the current uncertainty which is made worse by Remoaners failing to help to move things forward and in fact making it all worse so that a no deal BREXIT is now more likely.

Nissan has the same reasons as Honda, though they are not closing their UK plant. They're just keeping the next new model in Japan.

I have to say that I truly hope that that dreadful woman MP Soubry, a horrible remoaner who talks utter nonsense for a former business minister, leaves the Conservatives to become Independent.  Anyone who argues that no deal needs to be removed as an option, simply proves that they have no understanding of how to negotiate.  You have to be able to have an alternative option when negotiating as otherwise the discussion is simply a capitulation.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 19, 2019, 09:47:58 AM
Sadly people like Maxi perpetuate the Project Fear mantra, by blaming very negative thing on Brexit. FlyBMI has been in financial difficulty since before the referendum  vote.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 19, 2019, 09:48:47 AM
Your post is basically a pile of nonsense - its just throwing a pile of unconnected points together in an unsubstantiated and illogical way.
Sounds like your Brexit theories Baldy ;) So how are those 40 trade deals ready 1 second after Brexit coming along?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
I'm not saying that everything BREXITEER leaders say is correct.

I'm simply supporting the outcome of the 2016 Referendum, not least because I am justifying why I supported the official Leave campaign (not any unofficial one such as the one involving Farage MEP).

Fundamentally, BREXIT will do the UK a power of good in the long run.

The short term will involve bumps and an economic dip.  I don't mean a recession. I mean growth will be less fast for a short period.

How bad the temporary dip will be depends largely on how difficult remoaners make things and how incompetent our government is ....    but I am already seeing signs that the most senior EU leaders are already planning to help smooth things along if there is a "no deal" BREXIT.   Obviously, this is largely because any adverse effect on the UK economy will also adversely affect the EU (especially because the EU has a massive trade surplus with the UK).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:20:38 AM
Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.

You have mis-quoted. Brexit wasn't mentioned at all. We all know it was obviously a factor.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:21:55 AM
After supporting Brexit, Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, has announced plans to move to Monaco. The 65-year-old who is the CEO of the chemical firm Ineos and has an estimated fortune of £21 billion. He said during the 2016 referendum that he believed Britain would prosper outside of the European Union but isn’t sticking around after Brexit. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

-Brexiter: Jim Ratcliffe, UK’s richest man, plans move Monaco
-Brexiter: James Dyson moves company Singapore
-Brexiter: John Redwood advises investors to put money abroad
-Brexiter: Jacob Rees-Mogg firm opens funds Dublin
-Brexiter: Nigel Lawson seeks French residency

https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135 (https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135)

Fair play. They all wanted to leave -so they are!

Rats leaving a sinking ship..
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:23:49 AM


I'm simply supporting the outcome of the 2016 Referendum, not least because I am justifying why I supported the official Leave campaign (not any unofficial one such as the one involving Farage MEP).



You mean the ILLEGALLY funded leave campaign
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 10:24:05 AM
As a former long-standing Tory, I know how true blue Conservatives think.  Heck ... I actually used to know Philip May, the PM's husband, when I was a member of the executive committee of the Wimbledon Constituency Conservative Association during the 90s.

Incidentally, I know for a fact that Philip is a "sound" Tory. He was a keen fan of Mrs Thatcher and he is undoubtedly his wife's key personal consultant for major issues of state ...

My point is that I think Theresa wants to stand down asap but is simply staying in post to get the BREXIT job done. Philip will be thinking about how she can exit with her dignity and record intact as well as possible.

I think she has now realised that a no deal BREXIT will make most true blue Tories adore her.  Personally, I can't stand the woman, but I do now realise that I would absolutely admire her for seeing it all through and with the correct outcome if she now pulls this off. She will then be seen by true blue Tories as Mrs T mark 2.


Brace yourselves ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:34:08 AM
FFS

I wondered when Thatcher would get dug up and wheeled out!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 10:34:43 AM
Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.

You have mis-quoted. Brexit wasn't mentioned at all. We all know it was obviously a factor.

Wrong.

See:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386)

The third line confirms that BREXIT was not involved.


Quote:
"Ian Howells, senior vice-president for Honda in Europe, told the BBC: "We're seeing unprecedented change in the industry on a global scale. We have to move very swiftly to electrification of our vehicles because of demand of our customers and legislation."

"This is not a Brexit-related issue for us, it's being made on the global-related changes I've spoken about.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 10:36:59 AM
FFS

I wondered when Thatcher would get dug up and wheeled out!!!

OK.

I see crappy Corbyn as Michael Foot mark 2.  A mad man destined to dump Labour in the doldrums for another decade ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:46:46 AM


I see crappy Corbyn as Michael Foot mark 2.  A mad man destined to dump Labour in the doldrums for another decade ...

So do I
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 10:51:11 AM

Wrong.

See:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386)

The third line confirms that BREXIT was not involved.


Quote:
"Ian Howells, senior vice-president for Honda in Europe, told the BBC: "We're seeing unprecedented change in the industry on a global scale. We have to move very swiftly to electrification of our vehicles because of demand of our customers and legislation."

"This is not a Brexit-related issue for us, it's being made on the global-related changes I've spoken about.


I suppose it depends on how you interpret what he is actually talking about. I read it that he's saying their need for swift electrification was nothing to do with Brexit.

The move out of the Uk could be because of Brexit and the possible lack of decent trade deals after.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 19, 2019, 10:58:50 AM
Honda said the move was due to global changes in the car industry and the need to launch electric vehicles, and it had nothing to do with Brexit.

You have mis-quoted. Brexit wasn't mentioned at all. We all know it was obviously a factor.

It was by a Honda exec on Sky during an interview
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
I have a vivid memory of seeing Michael Foot walk past me on the pavement outside a pub in Albemarle Street, just off Piccadilly in Westminster.

This was a hot Summer's day in 1989 when Michael Foot MP was a former Labour leader and I was supping a pint with work colleagues (our office was half way up Albemarle Street opposite Brown's Hotel) and Foot walked straight through the stationary crowd of drinkers outside the pub.

His hair was all over the place and he was walking at a fast pace with loose papers under his arm.

He was talking loudly to himself as if practising or rerunning a speech.  We all just looked at him in amazement at how odd he looked and at how he just did not care that he looked and sounded odd as he walked along.....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 19, 2019, 11:04:21 AM
Ian Howells, senior vice-president for Honda in Europe, told the BBC: "We're seeing unprecedented change in the industry on a global scale. We have to move very swiftly to electrification of our vehicles because of demand of our customers and legislation."

"This is not a Brexit-related issue for us, it's being made on the global-related changes I've spoken about."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 11:18:48 AM
Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

So it's nothing  to do with Brexit? Even though Japan and the EU have recently concluded a trade deal which involves zero tariffs for car imports, and Honda Swindon has 350 trucks a day from Ghent in Belgium to support it's just in time manufacturing process.
Honda have previously stated that EU/UK Customs Union is *essential* for their business model. At Swindon plant: - components on site for less than 1 hour before assembly - 350 deliveries / day of EU-sourced parts - stockpile capacity only 1/2 day - loss of free flow costs £1m/day.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 11:25:34 AM
Russell, I wonder what your view is on the hearing on 21st Feb at The Royal Court of Justice, Wilson Vs The PM?

 The principal issue underlying the case posed a simple question: is a lawful, free and fair vote one of the constitutional requirements of the UK to leave the EU?

The Wilson pleadings submit that the Prime Minister’s Decision and subsequent (dependent) Notification to leave the EU was premised on a ‘fundamental error of fact’ and was not made in accordance with the UK’s constitutional requirements (as required by Article 50(1) & (2) TEU) and/or ‘are vitiated’ by the corruption & illegality. This means that the legal validity of the PMs Decision and Notification (based solely on the outcome of the referendum as the mandate) are impaired by the unlawful referendum campaign, as per the Electoral Commission (EC) findings in May and July 2018.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 11:33:01 AM
I have no view on this, except that I hope it goes away one way or another. It's just more remoanerism that the government has to handle.

I'll have read about it to see if I form a further view.

Wiki:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v_Prime_Minister (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_v_Prime_Minister)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 11:49:17 AM
The case was thrown out in the High Court and on appeal.

I agree with the Appeal Court Judge's decision in this judicial review case:

The claim was unduly delayed, and the basis for judicial review lacked "merit".

Lacked merit is clearly the main point here.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 14:12:18 PM
Yeah, looks like the judge let the criminal activity of the Vote Leave off due to a technicality. Too much time had passed to bring the charge. BoJo, Gove, et-al  knew what they were doing.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 14:58:12 PM
No. Lacked merit was the description applied to the basis of the claim for judicial review - ie. no valid reason worth looking at.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on February 19, 2019, 14:59:08 PM
Remainers will always try to twist a scenero to suit their cause...you lost the vote BUT still cannot get over it...sadly facts get the way of abit of scaremongering when really its time to stop fighting pull together & get through this as a team instead of wagging fingers.
Baldy is right in my opinion, the economy will have a little wobble upon leaving but it will be very short term & we will be stronger afterwards...the E.U's problem is it got too big, & it is them initiating the scaremonger tactics because loosing the U.K. is a far bigger blow to them than us & they know it.
Honda have already said 90% of their sales are Asia & U.S. so why build here & ship half way across the world, it does not make economic sense & I watched the interviews myself, they said in no uncertain terms Brexit was not to blame for their decsion, I expect rumblings have been occuring for 10 plus years.
We have all seen the slide in UK car manufacturering, how many have had hand outs from the government to try & keep them here over the last 20 odd years & just to be clear long before leaving the E.U. was an itch in anyones pants.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 15:39:57 PM
 [app] [app] [app]    [beer]     :)     ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 15:45:03 PM
Daily Mail:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6719923/Tory-rebel-Sarah-Wollaston-warns-BLUKIP-Westminster-waits.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6719923/Tory-rebel-Sarah-Wollaston-warns-BLUKIP-Westminster-waits.html)

Wow ...   if Anna Soubry and her ilk leave the Conservatives and if local associations are filling up with ex-UKIP members (most of whom were probably Tories in the first place who resigned back in the 90s under John Major's nonsense) I'll probably try to rejoin.

I'm definitely not running as a Cllr again, so it would be no big deal. I am still a Wiltshire Councillor and will stand down in 2021 having already resigned my town council seat.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 15:49:40 PM
The case was thrown out in the High Court and on appeal.

I agree with the Appeal Court Judge's decision in this judicial review case:

The claim was unduly delayed, and the basis for judicial review lacked "merit".

Lacked merit is clearly the main point here.

Others apparently didn't agree with the Appeal Court Judge's decision.

" An important hearing will take place on 21st February 2019 at the Royal Courts of Justice in London. The UK in EU Challenge are seeking a Judicial review of the 2016 EU Referendum, here Dr. Robert C. Palmer explains its intriguing background and the law supporting the case every British citizen should be aware of.

In the backdrop of the 2016 Referendum fallout, a number of legal challenges have been mounted to uphold the rule of law, the UK’s constitution and its democratic process. Many have fallen to the statutory time limitations imposed on judicial review proceedings. A new hope was announced to the public on Monday (11/02/19) following Lord Justice Hickinbottom’s decision to grant Susan Wilson and Others v The Prime Minister and Others (the UK in EU Challenge) leave to appeal Justice Ouseley’s brutal and absurd judgment on 10th December 2018."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 15:56:57 PM


Others apparently didn't agree with the Appeal Court Judge's decision.




So what?

Do you realise that the Court's decision is the Law.

An opinion by anyone on this is of no useful value unless they can change the Law.

As far as I am concerned an opinion by a lefty journalist on the matter is worth even less. It shows that their opinion is worse than useless.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 16:10:06 PM
Of course the Court's decision is the Law. However, the Appeal Court Judge's decision has been overruled by  Lord Justice Hickinbottom,  and a new decision will be made at the hearing on Thursday, and that will become Law.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 16:23:13 PM
Oops ...


Well, this could keep going up to the Supreme Court is suppose for a final decision...

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 16:43:37 PM

Remainers will always try to twist a scenero to suit their cause...you lost the vote BUT still cannot get over it...sadly facts get the way of abit of scaremongering when really its time to stop fighting pull together & get through this as a team instead of wagging fingers.


I don't think anyone's fighting are they. Just presenting facts to suit themselves. That gets done all the time.

My main gripe (and call me a remoaner if you want I don't care) is the way the the voters were lied to and conned by criminal activities by the Vote Leave campaign group and who have seemingly got away with it. there is no doubt that people's votes were swung by their deception. Enough  to tip the referendum result.

i really hope I wont have to say 'I told you so' in a years time.

I forget who said no deal is better than a bad deal but i disagree. Any deal is better than no deal.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 16:45:27 PM
Oops ...


Well, this could keep going up to the Supreme Court is suppose for a final decision...


Right. I've reread the Wiki article.

I assumed that the latest judgement was the Appeal Court decision.

But, as you say, the Appeal Court decision has not been made yet. 

So, in reality, we all await the next decision ...

Of course, MPs and the Government can change the law quickly if needed ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 16:54:27 PM
Oops ...


Well, this could keep going up to the Supreme Court is suppose for a final decision...


Right. I've reread the Wiki article.

I assumed that the latest judgement was the Appeal Court decision.

But, as you say, the Appeal Court decision has not been made yet. 

So, in reality, we all await the next decision ...

Of course, MPs and the Government can change the law quickly if needed ...

That would be akin to moving the goalposts, i.e  more cheating on top of the corrupt and illegal practices found by the Electoral Commission, and would prove that the UK has the best judicial system money can buy.

I was always told that cheats never prosper, one would hope so.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 16:57:23 PM
Parliament is supreme.

That's the whole point in the end.

Of course, parliament is accountable via general elections, so that would be when true justice is delivered ..... and I'm making no predictions at this point except that if Corbyn is the Labour leader at the time, he won't be the next PM.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 19, 2019, 17:03:00 PM
Indeed, but the key word here is Parliament,  not as you stated,  " the Government can change the law quickly if needed ".
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 17:08:02 PM
After supporting Brexit, Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, has announced plans to move to Monaco. The 65-year-old who is the CEO of the chemical firm Ineos and has an estimated fortune of £21 billion. He said during the 2016 referendum that he believed Britain would prosper outside of the European Union but isn’t sticking around after Brexit. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

-Brexiter: Jim Ratcliffe, UK’s richest man, plans move Monaco
-Brexiter: James Dyson moves company Singapore
-Brexiter: John Redwood advises investors to put money abroad
-Brexiter: Jacob Rees-Mogg firm opens funds Dublin
-Brexiter: Nigel Lawson seeks French residency

https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135 (https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1dizsGszEpnh2LqOvWhm7z4nw0opRJNRXOoZRgrerZo5bzZVd3NAyrdfE#Echobox=1550409135)


So ... ?

No change here. This is going on all the time and has been for decades, especially when Labour is in power.

In terms of individuals moving their main residence to overseas tax havens, they will only save tax on their own earnings and un-earned income from investments. Their businesses in the UK would still pay Corporation Tax, VAT, Business rates, National Insurance, Capital Gains Tax and their employees will be paying income tax on their salaries etc.  So, actually, the loss to the Uk is not quite as bad as it might at first look.

None of this is connected to BREXIT as this is simply the continuation of what has been going on for ages.  The only real issue as far as I can tell is whether it would increase if Labour got into power. One could argue that some of these wealthy individuals are moving now to make sure they've already protected their personal wealth if Labour get into power.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 17:09:52 PM
Indeed, but the key word here is Parliament,  not as you stated,  " the Government can change the law quickly if needed ".

well, I meant parliament which includes all MPs and the Government.

Clearly, the Government alone does not have control unless it has a clear working majority. Who knows if that applies right now on this issue ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on February 19, 2019, 17:18:19 PM

Remainers will always try to twist a scenero to suit their cause...you lost the vote BUT still cannot get over it...sadly facts get the way of abit of scaremongering when really its time to stop fighting

My main gripe (and call me a remoaner if you want I don't care) is the way the the voters were lied to and conned by criminal activities by the Vote Leave campaign group and who have seemingly got away with it. there is no doubt that people's votes were swung by their deception. Enough  to tip the referendum result.

i really hope I wont have to say 'I told you so' in a years time.

I forget who said no deal is better than a bad deal but i disagree. Any deal is better than no deal.
I didnt get lied to...I am quite well equiped & intellegent enough to come to my own conclusion & so were the other 52% of the country....As such I see that the E.U. is akin to the protection rackets seen under the rules of the Krays...trade through us, follow our rules, pay up or else...the E.U. leaders have clearly shown nothing but disrepect to our country, our leaders, our citizens & our future by moking the cabinet, making May tweek & re tweek the deal knowing before she even gets to the table they will reject it until it suits them OR she bows to their demands...as I said before they wont be willing to let us go purely because we are better off without them, they will not be better off without us...simple as
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 19, 2019, 18:53:20 PM

I didnt get lied to...I am quite well equiped & intellegent enough to come to my own conclusion & so were the other 52% of the country....As such I see that the E.U. is akin to the protection rackets seen under the rules of the Krays...trade through us, follow our rules, pay up or else...the E.U. leaders have clearly shown nothing but disrepect to our country, our leaders, our citizens & our future by moking the cabinet, making May tweek & re tweek the deal knowing before she even gets to the table they will reject it until it suits them OR she bows to their demands...as I said before they wont be willing to let us go purely because we are better off without them, they will not be better off without us...simple as

You did get lied to but I can clearly see that an intelligent person as you are it wasn't going to make any difference to your obvious extreme views of the EU.

I was talking about the few undecided voters, those who didn't know how they were going to vote right up to the point when they were in the voting booth with a pencil in their hand when suddenly they saw in their mind a big red bus. Ah, that's a lot of money I'll vote to have that back!

FYI it wasn't 52% of the country that voted to leave. Nearly 28% of eligible voters didn't bother voting.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 19, 2019, 20:23:39 PM
Honda's Swindon plant closure could lead to 7,000 job losses

Honda has admitted that the toll of job losses from the closure of its Swindon plant could reach 7,000, as automotive experts cast doubt on its claims that Brexit had nothing to do with the decision.

The Japanese carmaker confirmed on Tuesday morning that its Swindon factory would close from 2021 with the loss of 3,500 jobs, dealing another blow to a British car industry that has sounded repeated warnings about the dangers of Brexit.
Business minister Greg Clark was initially due to give a statement to the House of Commons about Honda and the state of the UK automotive sector but this was later delayed.

Hours after confirming Swindon’s closure, Honda said a further 3,500 jobs could be affected within the direct supply chain of subsidiaries and partner companies serving the plant, taking the total number of potential job losses to 7,000.
The company puts its decision down to its plans to invest in electric vehicles, insisting Brexit was not a factor.

But automotive industry experts said that while a variety of factors were to blame for Swindon’s closure, uncertainty about Britain’s future trading relationship with the EU must have played a part.

“They’re probably trying to be polite publicly but there’s a range of factors here,” said Professor David Bailey of Aston University.
He pointed to a landmark free trade deal between the EU and Japan that will allow Honda to export cars produced in its domestic market free of tariffs by 2027, reducing its need for a European base.

But he said that the lack of clarity about Brexit, coupled with the government’s poor industrial strategy, had made the decision easier for Honda.

“I think we’re seeing a collision between Brexit uncertainty making investment difficult, just as the industry is transforming itself,” he said.

“Honda came to the UK because it offered a launchpad into the single market. There’s a lot of bewilderment in Japan about Brexit because what we offered them has been taken away.

“We’re not upholding our side of the deal so they don’t need to either. There may have been more of a chance of the UK being a centre of electric vehicle production if we stayed in the single market and if we had a more supportive industrial stategy.”
Ian Henry, of AutoAnalysis, said: “I don’t buy that it [Brexit] isn’t at all a factor.

“I don’t think it’s the most important one but it could be the factor that might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.”

The Japanese carmaker announced it would shut the factory, its only European production site, in 2021, when the current Civic’s production cycle ends. The Swindon factory produces 150,000 Honda Civics a year amounting to about a tenth of total UK vehicle production.
Clark said it was “a devastating decision” for Swindon and the UK. “This news is a particularly bitter blow to the thousands of skilled and dedicated staff who work at the factory, their families and all of those employed in the supply chain.”

He said Honda’s move was a “commercial decision based on unprecedented changes in the global market”.
Katsushi Inoue, the chief officer for European regional operations and president of Honda Motor Europe, said: “In light of the unprecedented changes that are affecting our industry,

it is vital that we accelerate our electrification strategy and restructure our global operations accordingly.

“As a result, we have had to take this difficult decision to consult our workforce on how we might prepare our manufacturing network for the future. This has not been taken lightly and we deeply regret how unsettling today’s announcement will be for our people.”
Honda is expected to move production back to Japan, partly because it can guarantee tariff-free exports to the EU.

Workers at the Swindon plant were sent home on Tuesday morning as the company said it would begin consultations with them and would be working closely with the Unite union over the months ahead.

Major carmakers such as Jaguar Land Rover, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and BMW have been warning about the impact of a no-deal Brexit.

This is exacerbated by a slowdown in demand from China as well as slumping diesel sales caused by the continuing fallout from the “Dieselgate” emissions scandal.
Nissan recently ditched plans to build its new X-Trail SUV in Sunderland, while Ford is to axe 1,000 jobs as part of a wider European cost-cutting plan.

Jaguar Land Rover has cited Brexit among the factors in its own 4,500 job cuts, while Toyota and BMW have said production sites could close if there is a no-deal outcome.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/hondas-swindon-plant-closure-could-lead-to-7000-job-losses/ar-BBTN6f6?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/hondas-swindon-plant-closure-could-lead-to-7000-job-losses/ar-BBTN6f6?ocid=ientp)


Title: UK employment hits another record high
Post by: baldy on February 19, 2019, 22:26:32 PM
UK employment hits another record high


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47290331
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 20, 2019, 10:08:41 AM
Must be due to Brexit..... oh forgot, only negative stuff is due to Brexit
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 20, 2019, 11:12:09 AM
Must be due to Brexit..... oh forgot, only negative stuff is due to Brexit

Usually, yes.

And if you read the report all the way you would have seen this;

Analysis:
By Dharshini David, BBC economics correspondent

The jobs market remains in a robust shape despite the loss of momentum in the economy towards the end of last year - although the Brexit fog effect may be yet to register.
Continuing recent trends, the majority of those entering work were previously inactive (students, looking after home, long-term sick etc).
The demand for labour continues to bolster wage growth. Real wages increased by more than 1% per year, better on the whole than in recent years although about half the rate of the pre-crisis era.

So little sign of Brexit uncertainty hitting hiring so far - but demand in the labour market tends to lag significantly behind changes in output.




And the report lags behind current trends.

"However, the surveys deteriorated more markedly in January, so a Brexit effect might start to weaken employment growth in the next batch of official data."

Title: Three Tory MPs join Labour breakaway group
Post by: baldy on February 20, 2019, 11:14:09 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022


Good riddance to them.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 20, 2019, 12:54:15 PM
Must be due to Brexit..... oh forgot, only negative stuff is due to Brexit

Usually, yes.

And if you read the report all the way you would have seen this;

Analysis:
By Dharshini David, BBC economics correspondent

The jobs market remains in a robust shape despite the loss of momentum in the economy towards the end of last year - although the Brexit fog effect may be yet to register.
Continuing recent trends, the majority of those entering work were previously inactive (students, looking after home, long-term sick etc).
The demand for labour continues to bolster wage growth. Real wages increased by more than 1% per year, better on the whole than in recent years although about half the rate of the pre-crisis era.

So little sign of Brexit uncertainty hitting hiring so far - but demand in the labour market tends to lag significantly behind changes in output.




And the report lags behind current trends.

"However, the surveys deteriorated more markedly in January, so a Brexit effect might start to weaken employment growth in the next batch of official data."



Just thought I'd apply Maxi's logic. Everything is to do with Brexit, and ignore the facts. Keep repeating and it may come true :)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 21, 2019, 20:42:04 PM
BBC News - Record UK government surplus in January
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47318862

Must be to do with Brexit
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 21, 2019, 22:29:41 PM
From The Article Posted Above

"With the economy clearly struggling early on in 2019 after a sharp slowdown in the fourth quarter of 2018 and the Brexit situation highly uncertain, the chancellor will have a lot on his mind when he presents the Spring Statement.

"It looks highly likely that he will have to announce downgraded growth forecasts from the OBR [Office for Budget Responsibility] at least for the near term, with possible negative ramifications for expected budget deficits."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on February 22, 2019, 10:33:48 AM
BBC News - Record UK government surplus in January
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47318862

Must be to do with Brexit

If there is a surplus doesn't that mean the government has collected more tax than it has spent on services? Surely that's not right unless he reduces the tax on stuff next budget ?

Sounds like the government needs to get a decent accountant that can balance books?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on February 22, 2019, 10:45:16 AM
If there is a surplus doesn't that mean the government has collected more tax than it has spent on services? Surely that's not right unless he reduces the tax on stuff next budget ?

Sounds like the government needs to get a decent accountant that can balance books?
But in previous years there has not been a surplus and the government has borrowed, so now can pay it back. Thats how book balancing works.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 22, 2019, 15:59:53 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47329330

Dairy Crest, whose brands include Cathedral City cheddar and Country Life butter, has agreed to be bought by a Canadian company in a near-£1bn deal.

The deal is Saputo's first in Europe and it said Dairy Crest was an "attractive platform" for UK growth.

Clearly not concerned by Brexit, and see potential value in the company.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on February 22, 2019, 17:56:55 PM
BBC News - Record UK government surplus in January
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47318862 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47318862)

Must be to do with Brexit

If there is a surplus doesn't that mean the government has collected more tax than it has spent on services? Surely that's not right unless he reduces the tax on stuff next budget ?

Sounds like the government needs to get a decent accountant that can balance books?


It's not a complete surprise that a strong surplus occurs at this time of year when the annual deficit is falling to a low level per month and when the economy is still surging along with high levels of employment and when we all know that lots of tax payments are made in January.

To be honest, I would not attribute this particular good result to anything other than the economy gliding along at full employment (unaffected by BREXIT or Trump's nonsense around the world) plus tax receipts being strong (not least because of ever higher employment levels) plus the slow-moving austerity plan involving slowly reducing the annual deficit to a level where small surpluses will occur sooner or later ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 22, 2019, 18:08:34 PM
Brexit: UK plans new product safety mark for 'no deal' scenario
The government has drawn up plans to replace the CE safety symbol on products in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the BBC has learned.
Household items such as kettles, light bulbs and toys are stamped with the letters CE.
The mark belongs to the European Union, so if Britain leaves the EU without a deal, goods will have to be stamped with a new symbol - UKCA.
Some manufacturers are concerned that such a change will be costly.
Since 1993, the CE mark has shown consumers that an item meets EU legal requirements and has been tested.
The new logo drawn up by the UK government stands for UK Conformity Assessed (UKCA).
Officials are expected to unveil the logo shortly.
"A UK mark would provide confidence to consumers and to the authorities that these products meet UK regulatory requirements," Scott Steedman of the British Standards Institution told the BBC.
"It provides flexibility for government should there be divergence of regulations to insist that manufacturers were committing to that UK regulatory practice in future," he said.
Goods made in the UK which are exported to the European Union may have to be stamped with two marks - CE for EU markets and UKCA for Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
For some products that could also mean two sets of tests, as EU nations may not recognise ones done by UK organisations.
"Products which were assessed by a UK-based notified body will need to be reassessed by an EU-recognised conformity assessment body before placing on the EU market," explained part of the government's no deal planning guidance for manufacturers.
If there is no deal, at the end of March or later, product makers will not have to adopt the new UKCA marking straight away.
It is expected that companies will be given a period of grace.
That means all the products on the shelves and in warehouses which have the CE mark on them can still be sold legally in the UK.
In a previous no-deal planning notice, the government said "goods made and assessed against EU regulatory requirements can continue to be placed on the UK market after 29 March 2019. This is intended to be for a time-limited period."
A consultation on the length of time is likely to take place.
The government insists delivering a deal remains its priority, but it is accelerating no-deal preparations to ensure businesses are prepared for the end of March.

f I were a component buyer working in Europe and was presented with a choice of the CE mark or UKCA  mark I would always buy CE as the testing standards will be constant.
How could I trust UKCA to maintain standards
.
This has all been left to the last minute by the government for british manufacturers leaving little time to prepare for this.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on February 22, 2019, 19:23:39 PM
Sometimes I despair of this country.   :(      Why do we need a UKCA   when we still have the BSI and the Kitemark?

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on February 22, 2019, 19:32:21 PM
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52822953_10216497247255945_3098421194387357696_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=c64cb59bf99bc1f23f166d0c705c7d40&oe=5CEB1776)

Inaccurate, and you complain of the lies told by leavers, how ironic
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 25, 2019, 17:47:14 PM
Polls show Brexit regret is so strong that 'Remain' would win a second referendum by 9 points



https://www.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-brexit-regret-remain-second-referendum-2019-2?fbclid=IwAR3Awazz18KYIezxIV0sZLZFvuIs7kCxNvfr4onvwChERhTSMxTqg_SPr7g&r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com/yougov-poll-brexit-regret-remain-second-referendum-2019-2?fbclid=IwAR3Awazz18KYIezxIV0sZLZFvuIs7kCxNvfr4onvwChERhTSMxTqg_SPr7g&r=US&IR=T)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on February 25, 2019, 17:51:03 PM
Labour Announce Backing For A second Referendum


https://news.sky.com/story/labour-announce-backing-for-a-second-brexit-referendum-11648217?fbclid=IwAR3exzkzJ4wabaUxoeGWIxhGndlDn7NmdotLvqWqT7Qc2GViC63YS8wCrdY (https://news.sky.com/story/labour-announce-backing-for-a-second-brexit-referendum-11648217?fbclid=IwAR3exzkzJ4wabaUxoeGWIxhGndlDn7NmdotLvqWqT7Qc2GViC63YS8wCrdY)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on February 26, 2019, 07:43:44 AM
No change there then, sounds remarkably like the Labour Party's 2018 Conference Policy. Respect for the referendum result, campaign for GE, all options on the table.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 01, 2019, 18:36:24 PM
May 'struggling to see any Brexit upside', says ex-aide

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47416873/may-struggling-to-see-any-brexit-upside-says-ex-aide

Nick Timothy, who was Theresa May's right-hand man in her first year in office, says the prime minister and other ministers are treating Brexit as a "damage limitation exercise".
He tells the BBC's Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg that while he respects Mrs May, he thinks she is "struggling to see any economic upside" from leaving the EU.
Mr Timothy, a Brexiteer, also didn't hold back when describing the attitude of many in Parliament.
He told me that many MPs write off Leave voters as "being racist, stupid or too old to have a stake in the future" and warned that the government's mishandling of Brexit risked "opening up space for a populist right wing party … this is one of the dangers of where we are right now".
Mr Timothy, who many MPs consider to have been responsible for some of the mistakes of the 2017 general election campaign, also said that Theresa May's premiership had "not been bad, but unlucky".
The clip is from forthcoming BBC Two documentary Inside the Brexit Storm.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 02, 2019, 14:17:08 PM
May 'struggling to see any Brexit upside', says ex-aide

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47416873/may-struggling-to-see-any-brexit-upside-says-ex-aide (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47416873/may-struggling-to-see-any-brexit-upside-says-ex-aide)

Nick Timothy, who was Theresa May's right-hand man in her first year in office, says the prime minister and other ministers are treating Brexit as a "damage limitation exercise".
He tells the BBC's Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg that while he respects Mrs May, he thinks she is "struggling to see any economic upside" from leaving the EU.
Mr Timothy, a Brexiteer, also didn't hold back when describing the attitude of many in Parliament.
He told me that many MPs write off Leave voters as "being racist, stupid or too old to have a stake in the future" and warned that the government's mishandling of Brexit risked "opening up space for a populist right wing party … this is one of the dangers of where we are right now".
Mr Timothy, who many MPs consider to have been responsible for some of the mistakes of the 2017 general election campaign, also said that Theresa May's premiership had "not been bad, but unlucky".
The clip is from forthcoming BBC Two documentary Inside the Brexit Storm.


So what?


The PM was a remainer. She's the most crap PM we've ever had and now she's just about a reluctant leaver who is trying to negotiate a deal that is neither remain or fully out because she's so bad at negotiating anything that she thinks a plain compromise will work ... when all that does is annoy the remainers and annoy the true BREXIT believers ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 02, 2019, 14:19:43 PM
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53417932_10157468682117526_440458989377945600_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=300a08721539a5fe3e5b809217b3d471&oe=5CDCDD59)


The scary thing is that this might be true if a useless leader like Mrs May stays involved.


I have a suspicion that the next Conservative PM will do what the majority of the Conservative Party members want: something closer to proper BREXIT based on Leave means Leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 02, 2019, 19:39:58 PM
It’s got feck all to do with what the Conservative party members want.

Who’s to say the next PM is going to be a Tory anyway !

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: wanderlust on March 02, 2019, 21:36:56 PM
As May will be gone before 2022, I can safely say that the next Prime Minister WILL be Tory
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 03, 2019, 01:24:01 AM
Exactly.

The Tories will change their leader within a year and so he or she will be the new PM without a general election.

To win the leadership vote amongst Tory members, the winning candidate will clearly campaign on the idea of a clean BREXIT (ie. fully out of the EU or at least more out than the Maybot tried to achieve).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 03, 2019, 08:54:08 AM
Quote
To win the leadership vote amongst Tory members, the winning candidate will clearly campaign on the idea of a clean BREXIT (ie. fully out of the EU or at least more out than the Maybot tried to achieve).


I don't Think This Would Happen, As  All The Latest Opinion Polls Clearly Indicate, Remain Would Win If Another Referendum Was Held, Even if no one changed their mind the report shown Below Remain would win narrowly. Due To Death And New Younger Voters.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-second-referendum-odds (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-second-referendum-odds)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 03, 2019, 09:12:20 AM
Maxi, do you realise that the Conservative party leader selection process is separate to any parliamentary decision on the way forward for BREXIT?


Most members of the Conservative Party, by far, want a clean or fully out BREXIT.
Tory MPs are a small minority of the Tory membership and all they can do in the leadership process is select 2 candidates, which are bound to be one remainder and one leaver, with the leaver ending up with a runaway win when the whole Tory membership votes.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 03, 2019, 09:14:16 AM
Exactly.

The Tories will change their leader within a year and so he or she will be the new PM without a general election.

To win the leadership vote amongst Tory members, the winning candidate will clearly campaign on the idea of a clean BREXIT (ie. fully out of the EU or at least more out than the Maybot tried to achieve).

An arrogant assumption almost at Jacob Rees Mogg standards.

A new leader maybe, but not one that's going to lead the country over the cliff edge necessarily. You forget that most Tory MP's voted remain!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 03, 2019, 09:20:24 AM
Exactly.

The Tories will change their leader within a year and so he or she will be the new PM without a general election.

To win the leadership vote amongst Tory members, the winning candidate will clearly campaign on the idea of a clean BREXIT (ie. fully out of the EU or at least more out than the Maybot tried to achieve).

An arrogant assumption almost at Jacob Rees Mogg standards.

A new leader maybe, but not one that's going to lead the country over the cliff edge necessarily. You forget that most Tory MP's voted remain!


You forget that most Tory members want to leave the EU.  The Tory Leadership process includes a vote amongst the whole Conservative party membership. There will not be another anointment made by MPs fixing it up by getting a second candidate who pulls out.


In any event, we are talking about a period in the future when a new Tory PM will have to steer the UK towards a better BREXIT, which could take several years without any cliff edge.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 03, 2019, 09:36:32 AM
Exactly.

The Tories will change their leader within a year and so he or she will be the new PM without a general election.

To win the leadership vote amongst Tory members, the winning candidate will clearly campaign on the idea of a clean BREXIT (ie. fully out of the EU or at least more out than the Maybot tried to achieve).

An arrogant assumption almost at Jacob Rees Mogg standards.

A new leader maybe, but not one that's going to lead the country over the cliff edge necessarily. You forget that most Tory MP's voted remain!


You forget that most Tory members want to leave the EU.  The Tory Leadership process includes a vote amongst the whole Conservative party membership. There will not be another anointment made by MPs fixing it up by getting a second candidate who pulls out.


In any event, we are talking about a period in the future when a new Tory PM Will have to steer the UK towards a better BREXIT, which could take several years without any cliff edge.

Again an assumption. How do you know? It was a secret ballot.

So you see Brexit being delayed indefinitely then.

 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 03, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
You are making no sense,
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on March 03, 2019, 12:50:54 PM

Most members of the Conservative Party, by far, want a clean or fully out BREXIT.
Tory MPs are a small minority of the Tory membership and all they can do in the leadership process is select 2 candidates, which are bound to be one remainder and one leaver, with the leaver ending up with a runaway win when the whole Tory membership votes.
In March 2018 the Conservative Party had a membership of 120,000, the Bow Group have calculated that the average age of it's members is 72, membership won't have changed significantly but voters may have changed in that it is suggested that a younger electorate would support remain.
Some 70%+ conservative constituencies voted leave, however the majority of Conservative MP's supported remain, so it could well mean that a pro remain leader is elected, despite the members wishes, but either way parliament will still remain with the same split whoever is PM.
The only sure way of getting a decision is a new parliament elected on the basis of candidates declared position on Britain's position in or out of the European Union. 

 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 03, 2019, 15:02:42 PM
You are making no sense,

You mean that you are making no sense of my posts.

Your recent posts are making huge assumptions based upon what you would like to happen.

IF the conservatives change their leader, the new leader winning might be someone who in fact didn't campaign for leadership based on a clean (no deal) (hard) Brexit at all because he / she would be chosen by conservative MP's who in fact don't want a Clean (no deal) (hard) Brexit. Alternatively you might be correct in your assumption.

You also make assumptions that most members voted to leave. They may well have but you do not know for sure and on what terms they would want to leave. (any deal) (Soft) etc.

Just because as Michael says 70%+ of constituences held by Tories voted leave, it doesn't mean the majority of voters voting leave were Tories. You get muddled and stupid people in all walks of life.

So all assumptions - not fact.

Lastly, you talked about a period in the future (after March 29th) when all this will happen. That suggests to me that you would like to see Brexit delayed. Is that what you see / would like to happen?



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 03, 2019, 15:07:10 PM


]In March 2018 the Conservative Party had a membership of 120,000, the Bow Group have calculated that the average age of it's members is 72, membership won't have changed significantly but voters may have changed in that it is suggested that a younger electorate would support remain. Some 70%+ conservative constituencies voted leave, however the majority of Conservative MP's supported remain, so it could well mean that a pro remain leader is elected, despite the members wishes, but either way parliament will still remain with the same split whoever is PM.The only sure way of getting a decision is a new parliament elected on the basis of candidates declared position on Britain's position in or out of the European Union.   

No.

The process for electing the leader of the Conservative Party involves the MPs choosing their best 2 candidates via a process of elimination and then the last 2 candidates are put to the whole party membership.

The MPs will split and support either remain or leave candidates in the end as the process of elimination involves the losing candidates asking their supporters to support the remaining candidate they prefer. This will result in one remain MP and one leave MP candidate to put to the membership.

At this point, the vast majority of members will select the Leave candidate.  All MPs will then be expected to follow their leader or they will risk deselection in any leave constituency as the general election will still be some time off.

I think if the Maybot fails to deliver BREXIT before she resigns (whether her deal or a clean BREXIT or anything in between), the next Conservative PM will begin a new attempt to negotiate BREXIT and this may well involve a delay rather than a cliff edge. Obviously, I have no crystal ball but I am certain that the next Tory PM will be a Leaver (a proper leaver not a remainer turned reluctant leaver like the Maybot).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 03, 2019, 15:43:57 PM


]In March 2018 the Conservative Party had a membership of 120,000, the Bow Group have calculated that the average age of it's members is 72, membership won't have changed significantly but voters may have changed in that it is suggested that a younger electorate would support remain. Some 70%+ conservative constituencies voted leave, however the majority of Conservative MP's supported remain, so it could well mean that a pro remain leader is elected, despite the members wishes, but either way parliament will still remain with the same split whoever is PM.The only sure way of getting a decision is a new parliament elected on the basis of candidates declared position on Britain's position in or out of the European Union.   

No.

The process for electing the leader of the Conservative Party involves the MPs choosing their best 2 candidates via a process of elimination and then the last 2 candidates are put to the whole party membership.

The MPs will split and support either remain or leave candidates in the end as the process of elimination involves the losing candidates asking their supporters to support the remaining candidate they prefer. This will result in one remain MP and one leave MP candidate to put to the membership.

At this point, the vast majority of members will select the Leave candidate. All MPs will then be expected to follow their leader or they will risk deselection in any leave constituency as the general election will still be some time off.




Bloody hell  - bribery and corruption within the conservative party! Who knew?  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 06, 2019, 08:20:12 AM
No-deal damage less than feared, says Carney


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-damage-would-be-less-than-we-feared-says-mark-carney-60pg3snrh?shareToken=b40a5b6a7601864877f11f5227d1356e
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 06, 2019, 08:42:45 AM
Do you trust what he says?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 06, 2019, 08:46:16 AM
Not much. I referred to this because it counters the project fear nonsense he spouted last Autumn.


I hope he goes home to Canada asap. I preferred the Ken and Eddy show, when Steady Eddy and Ken Clark seemed to know what they were doing ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 06, 2019, 11:45:48 AM

Not much. I referred to this because it counters the project fear nonsense he spouted last Autumn.



Not really, he's still saying we should be afraid. Just not very afraid.

But he's only re-appraised the situation after what the government said it would do now if no deal. i.e. planning to cut tariffs on certain imports.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on March 08, 2019, 07:41:12 AM
You obviously miss the point, most Leave voters, particularly those in the North on England, felt that under the Tories things couldn't get any worse.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 08, 2019, 14:39:05 PM
 Reject my Brexit deal and 'we may never leave at all', May warns


Hopefully It Will Be Rejected Then.




https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-in-last-ditch-plea-to-eu-ahead-of-brexit-vote-11658551 (https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-in-last-ditch-plea-to-eu-ahead-of-brexit-vote-11658551)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 09, 2019, 09:26:58 AM
is there any other country that is land locked in the EU that does not have any boarder controls?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 09, 2019, 09:35:08 AM
What ?  We are not land-locked. No part of the UK is land-locked because all parts are islands or part of islands. Bizarre question.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 09, 2019, 10:03:39 AM
bloody hell, i did not say we are Landlocked, i said other countries, and actually, yesterday on Radio Four asked the same question to a EU member Councillor, so instead of jumping down my throat, and calling it ,Bizarre, if you do not know the answer, maybe someone does!!!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pugwash on March 09, 2019, 11:50:25 AM
Dorian, does this help?

" Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City remain outside the Union, some because of the cost of membership as the EU has not been designed with microstates in mind. Andorra is, by population, the largest of the 5 microstates with 78,115 according to a census taken in 2011.
Iceland is considered a microstate by some, because of its small population of 320,060 per April 2012. It is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA), and is recognized as an official candidate for accession to the Union, though the negotiations have been suspended. If Iceland accedes to become an EU member state, it would enter as the smallest EU state measured by population, although twelfth largest by geographical size.
Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City use the euro through monetary agreements with the EU, and have been granted the right to issue a limited number of euro coins. They were allowed to do so as they had used or been tied to the old eurozone currencies. Liechtenstein, on the other hand, uses the Swiss franc.

Liechtenstein is a full member of the Schengen Agreement, EFTA and Dublin Regulation on asylum and is negotiating an agreement to participate in the Prüm Decisions, while Monaco has an open border with France and Schengen laws are administered as if it were a part of France. San Marino and the Vatican City have an open border with their neighbouring Schengen Area state Italy. No microstates can issue Schengen visas.[citation needed] None of them have any airport, but all have heliports. Monaco has the only seaport. Arrival from outside the Schengen Area is allowed in Monaco, but not in San Marino and the Vatican City as they have no border controls.

Monaco is a part of the EU customs territory through an agreement with France, and is administered as part of France. San Marino and Andorra are in a customs union with the bloc. Liechtenstein, as a member of the EEA, is within the EU internal market and applies certain EU laws. All of the microstates are also part of other organisations such as the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (the Vatican is member only of the OSCE)
"
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 09, 2019, 12:00:29 PM
is there any other country that is land locked in the EU that does not have any boarder controls?


Dorian


You said "other" country, which means you think a country is already landlocked which I assumed was the UK because you did not mention any country.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 10, 2019, 11:16:19 AM
Thanks Pugwash for that very comprehensive answer, the politicians(if you can then that) were arguing on the radio that Ireland and Northern Ireland would be the only country NOT to have a hard Border if Mrs May has her way... Thanks
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on March 10, 2019, 17:16:23 PM
I really am sick of this sh1t now, if the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a sh1t how we felt, no you wouldn't it would be "you lost, tough sh1t". But no, you've got to whine and bitch about the result of a democratic vote, well hear this, TOUGH SH1T, you lost, get over it. If you want to live under an undemocratic dictatorship then you're more than welcome to emigrate.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 10, 2019, 17:46:20 PM
I really am sick of this sh1t now, if the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a sh1t how we felt, no you wouldn't it would be "you lost, tough sh1t". But no, you've got to whine and bitch about the result of a democratic vote, well hear this, TOUGH SH1T, you lost, get over it. If you want to live under an undemocratic dictatorship then you're more than welcome to emigrate.




 [app] [app] [app] [app]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 10, 2019, 21:24:30 PM
I really am sick of this sh1t now, if the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a sh1t how we felt, no you wouldn't it would be "you lost, tough sh1t". But no, you've got to whine and bitch about the result of a democratic vote, well hear this, TOUGH SH1T, you lost, get over it. If you want to live under an undemocratic dictatorship then you're more than welcome to emigrate.

Pete, you obviously voted leave. Do you want a hard Brexit (no deals) like Baldy , or would you rather the UK left with trade deals in place (soft)?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 10, 2019, 23:48:56 PM
Maxi, please put a sock in it.  Simply repeating clever-dick nonsense from other sites isn't going to convince anyone and isn't appropriate for this forum. 

Let's talk about Westbury instead.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on March 11, 2019, 01:09:15 AM
I really am sick of this sh1t now, if the shoe was on the other foot, would you give a sh1t how we felt, no you wouldn't it would be "you lost, tough sh1t". But no, you've got to whine and bitch about the result of a democratic vote, well hear this, TOUGH SH1T, you lost, get over it. If you want to live under an undemocratic dictatorship then you're more than welcome to emigrate.

Pete, you obviously voted leave. Do you want a hard Brexit (no deals) like Baldy , or would you rather the UK left with trade deals in place (soft)?

I don't believe having a trade deal with the EU is a soft Brexit at all, a soft Brexit is where we are stuck in the customs union, cfp, cap, etc, that's what I don't want. However, if it's a choice between the current deal and no deal, then i would choose no deal.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on March 11, 2019, 07:08:14 AM
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FTitaniaMcGrath%2Fstatus%2F1104539133937098752%3Fs%3D04%26fbclid%3DIwAR2L-_5mwpwRcmTE3Rb39XByZ3dVWE0SQoPBq43ioPwRMXpxlswqWHjtknk&h=AT0nKmU6RuLlsrUzSdYt-Z9zNDY53E7rL-hcbbeglYKJ1jWNkIEtYop3jzjY-rd3IxDF8ynJbXRZ6bjkUNPvpPvfj6PyYcuepcdRJ2bsh3e7mpbfsZOnxy5RIyaMlPEdnydG5Gg9xFQ4X_8mfn6004wAFbzr0s0

I agree John GL, Maxi if your going to post stuff from other sites at least make a serious attempt to find a solution the we can discuss sensibly, like this from a twitter feed. :)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 11, 2019, 13:00:00 PM
Maxi, please put a sock in it.  Simply repeating clever-dick nonsense from other sites isn't going to convince anyone and isn't appropriate for this forum. 

Let's talk about Westbury instead.

A bit harsh. Maxi is only expressing frustration at what he believes is a monumental mistake. Nothing inappropriate as far as I can see. Everyone copies and pastes..

Talk about Westbury on the Westbury board if that's what you want to do.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 11, 2019, 13:15:21 PM


I don't believe having a trade deal with the EU is a soft Brexit at all, a soft Brexit is where we are stuck in the customs union, cfp, cap, etc, that's what I don't want. However, if it's a choice between the current deal and no deal, then i would choose no deal.

A trade deal or customs union in which there will be free movement of goods between the UK and the EU is something we have now and would be considered a soft Brexit if that was still the case afterwards. That isn't going to happen.

I assume when you say cfp you mean Common Fisheries Policy? cap again I assume you mean Common Agricultural Policy?  If you do, I can't really comment on the CFP as I don't know much about it and I don't like fish. But the CAP is very important, in some areas such as bio-diversity and sustainable farming, that I believe it is a good thing to have - not lose. Living in a rural county I would have thought you would appreciate that.

I think any deal is better than a no deal.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 11, 2019, 18:03:26 PM
Quote
A bit harsh. Maxi is only expressing frustration at what he believes is a monumental mistake. Nothing inappropriate as far as I can see. Everyone copies and pastes..


Thanks Bob That Sums Up My Feelings, But I apologise if I have upset other forum members with my posts  :( :o
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 12, 2019, 09:14:04 AM
If you did, It's because for some people admitting they made a mistake is very hard. And because they will never admit they made a mistake, they get angry when faced with the truth.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 12, 2019, 10:12:20 AM
Maxi, all you are doing is posting links to sites that support your view, and it's just clogging up the homepage. Anyone can post links to sites that support their view, I could post several links a day saying the world is flat.

Bottom line is Brexit is happening regardless of how upset you are. Remainers would have been better off the last two years trying to shape a good deal for the UK rater that trying to subvert the result.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 12, 2019, 11:06:38 AM
Anyone can post links to sites that support their view, I could post several links a day saying the world is flat.



OMG. You too!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 12, 2019, 11:19:19 AM


Bottom line is Brexit is happening regardless of how upset you are.

Is it though?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 12, 2019, 11:25:10 AM


 Remainers would have been better off the last two years trying to shape a good deal for the UK rater that trying to subvert the result.

We have good deals already. Well mostly. We could have had an influence on making them better - not now!

In any case, personally, I've been forced to 'stabilise' our supply chain. We supply to PHE and NHS. They are worried no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 12, 2019, 11:27:10 AM
Maxi, all you are doing is posting links to sites that support your view, and it's just clogging up the homepage.

Brexit has been clogging every fecking homepage / front page / face page etc. ever since that twat Cameron called a referendum!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 12, 2019, 12:22:03 PM
Personally, my business is temporarily fecked too. we have Gove trying to turn our arable land fit for butterflies and fecking toads whilst Jacob rees Mogg seems to think we can buy cheap food from abroad.... yeh sure that works.
our cash flow is fecked too as we purchase all our agrochemicals from Germany, usually when needed, April through to August, but we have had to stockpile and pay for stuff months ahead ..... LET THEM EAT  IT CAKE... cos soon our farming industry will be fecked too... Rant over
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 17, 2019, 19:42:44 PM
Any Predictions On What Will Happen Next.

Or What You Would Like To See Happen Next.

Mine Is The Deal will Be Rolled Out For The Third Time And Be Narrowly Defeated, Then The Impasse Will Be Put To The People To Vote On

Which Will Be, Mays Deal, No Deal, Or Remain.

I Saw James Grey On  This Morning Saying He Is Going To  Vote For May's Deal This Time Where Previously He Has Voted Against It. He Also Said Perhaps  a good Deal Is That All Sides Are A little Bit Unhappy With It.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 17, 2019, 20:06:11 PM
I don't think anyone knows for sure what will happen next and certainly not the real outcome yet.

It seems that the PM is pulling every lever possible to press Conservative MPs and the DUP to support her deal.

I get a sense that she may win or lose the next (3rd) meaningful vote on the ("her" - actually the EU's) deal by a much smaller number than before. It seems that a lot of gamesmanship is going on and that there will probably be a 4th meaningful vote when she throws everything at it including all sorts of bribes, including probably peerages etc, which she will win by a slim majority.

I have to say that I was very impressed by Julia Hartley-Brewer on Question Time on Thursday when she said that there should be no more referendums until the result of the last referendum is honoured, otherwise why should anyone bother?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 18, 2019, 11:14:05 AM
I think the hardline 'no deal' Brexiters are accepting now that leaving with May's deal with the EU is the only option if actually leaving is going to happen. with a few bribes to the DUP I think this next time it will get accepted and passed.

Of course there is still a fly in the ointment from the future Prime Minister - BoJo - who still wants the deal changed. I see he's had a haircut now to make himself not look so stupid. I don't think it makes any difference.  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 18, 2019, 12:37:35 PM
I think the hardline 'no deal' Brexiters are accepting now that leaving with May's deal with the EU is the only option if actually leaving is going to happen. with a few bribes to the DUP I think this next time it will get accepted and passed.

Of course there is still a fly in the ointment from the future Prime Minister - BoJo - who still wants the deal changed. I see he's had a haircut now to make himself not look so stupid. I don't think it makes any difference.  ;D

I think you are right, the DUP must be rubbing their hands waiting for the extra cash. They seem to want to be treated the same as the rest of the UK when it suits, but not when it comes to gay marriage or abortion.

Once BREXIT is sorted there is nothing to stop the UK continuing negotiations, and even changing some aspects at a later date. I strongly suspect the EU want to make life as difficult as possible to act as a warning to other countries thinking of leaving.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 18, 2019, 15:07:49 PM
Well, if BOJO becomes PM, I'll be looking forward to seeing his first meeting with President Trump, who BOJO insulted as foreign secretary ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 18, 2019, 17:49:56 PM
Well I was Wrong, Now Bercow Has Intervened. :-\
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 18, 2019, 20:07:46 PM
Woo hoo

Looks like no (EU) deal on WTO terms is more likely to happen now ...

It is common knowledge and standard practice and frequently mentioned within local councils that motions cannot be brought back for debate within 6 months or more depending on what each constitution says. This is to stop the losers from causing chaos with repeated motions that will fail because they can't accept their loss and their wish to block the business of the council until they get their way ...

It seems to me that our MPs really are incompetent ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 19, 2019, 09:05:39 AM
I've decided that the dreadful PM Mrs May is responsible for the biggest failure of UK/ English statecraft since 1066.

I was impressed with a comment last night on Newsnight that the current constitutional mess is the biggest failure of statecraft since Suez. But, thinking about that I realised that Mrs May is responsible and actually this is worse than Suez. To think of any larger failure than Suez previously, I end up with the last succesful invasion of Britain by the Normans in 1066.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 19, 2019, 13:04:13 PM
Woo hoo

Looks like no (EU) deal on WTO terms is more likely to happen now ...



I don't think so. May will ask EU for a delay which they will agree to. In that period enough changes and tweeks will be made to the agreed deal that it will be allowed another vote in Parliament.

it was probably someone like BoJo that pointed out to Bercow the ancient legislation.



It seems to me that our MPs really are incompetent ...

That's been obvious for years!
Title: UK employment at highest since 1971
Post by: baldy on March 19, 2019, 13:30:57 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47622415 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47622415)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 19, 2019, 19:17:24 PM
https://twitter.com/RuthLeaEcon/status/1108046672347705344 (https://twitter.com/RuthLeaEcon/status/1108046672347705344)
 

Ruth Lea: 

"Treasury (May 2016) - vote to leave would represent a...shock to our economy which would push it into recession & lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000".

Reality (March 2019) - unemployment rate 3.9%, lowest since 1975.

Treasury should hang its head in shame."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 20, 2019, 23:31:49 PM
I've decided that the dreadful PM Mrs May is responsible for the biggest failure of UK/ English statecraft since 1066.

I was impressed with a comment last night on Newsnight that the current constitutional mess is the biggest failure of statecraft since Suez. But, thinking about that I realised that Mrs May is responsible and actually this is worse than Suez. To think of any larger failure than Suez previously, I end up with the last succesful invasion of Britain by the Normans in 1066.

How about the 1765 Stamp Act and its consequences??  1066 was surely a military defeat rather than a failure of statecraft.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 21, 2019, 09:21:14 AM
https://twitter.com/RuthLeaEcon/status/1108046672347705344 (https://twitter.com/RuthLeaEcon/status/1108046672347705344)
 

Ruth Lea: 

"Treasury (May 2016) - vote to leave would represent a...shock to our economy which would push it into recession & lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000".

Reality (March 2019) - unemployment rate 3.9%, lowest since 1975.

Treasury should hang its head in shame."


Let us no forget the apocalyptic doomsday scenario that was painted by experts when we chose not to join the Euro. In hindsight the best decison we made.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bobbyt on March 21, 2019, 09:25:21 AM
It's a complete shambles.  :-[
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 21, 2019, 11:05:37 AM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 21, 2019, 11:12:53 AM
I've decided that the dreadful PM Mrs May is responsible for the biggest failure of UK/ English statecraft since 1066.

I was impressed with a comment last night on Newsnight that the current constitutional mess is the biggest failure of statecraft since Suez. But, thinking about that I realised that Mrs May is responsible and actually this is worse than Suez. To think of any larger failure than Suez previously, I end up with the last succesful invasion of Britain by the Normans in 1066.

How about the 1765 Stamp Act and its consequences??  1066 was surely a military defeat rather than a failure of statecraft.


Well, I'm happy to bow to your better knowledge of history though I think it's worth discussing the exact meanings going on here.


According to online dictionary vocabulary.com, statecraft means:


The ability to be a savvy and effective political leader ... If the President isn't skilled at statecraft, he or she will have a hard time accomplishing anything.

A lot goes into statecraft, which is sometimes called "the art of governing." Political experience, diplomacy, and leadership skills are all essential to statecraft. The ultimate goal of statecraft depends on who is practicing it; for some it's power and for others it's world peace. The word statecraft has been used in English since the 17th century.




As far as I can tell, statecraft includes military competence where it is relevant to achieving the main aims of the state.

The 1765 Stamp Act related to British colonial territories to raise taxes there without consent from the locals and helped to stir up tensions that resulted in the American War of Independence with the result that Britain lost those territories.

So I agree that this was pretty serious, but it did not really threaten the homeland or the existence of parliament itself.

In 1066. the King of England failed to prevent an outright invasion that led to him being killed and the country being taken over by Normans.

Right now, we have a complete failure of governance by parliament that has led to a situation where the whole country is trapped in the EU nearly three years after the referendum which decided that we are leaving the EU. If we lost Gibraltar in the process, I would see a connection with us losing the colonies that now are part of the USA.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 21, 2019, 12:16:47 PM
Not sure the Battle of Hastings was lost due to military incompetence. King Harold had to deal with attacks from Hardrada and Tostig north of the country (which he finally won at Stamford Bridge), and  then march south to tackle William.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on March 21, 2019, 12:20:34 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
So, after a general election you spend 5years in faithful support of the government voted in?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on March 21, 2019, 12:21:45 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Also, by your logic, anyone campaigning for Brexit shouldn't have been, cos we had a referendum result in the 70's to say we should join the EU.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 21, 2019, 12:23:47 PM
Not sure the Battle of Hastings was lost due to military incompetence. King Harold had to deal with attacks from Hardrada and Tostig north of the country (which he finally won at Stamford Bridge), and  then march south to tackle William.


In simplistic terms, the Normans totally outrun the English with superior tactics. I’m not saying Harold was incompetent, I’m saying his efforts to protect the state or Kingdom were roundly defeated.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 21, 2019, 13:41:57 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Also, by your logic, anyone campaigning for Brexit shouldn't have been, cos we had a referendum result in the 70's to say we should join the EU.

That's not a logical argument, as the vote in the 70's wasn't to join the EU.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 21, 2019, 13:55:01 PM
Perhaps a parallel with today might be the events of 1637-1642.  We had an incompetent ruler (Charles I) who completely failed to understand the extent of popular opposition to his policies, and a Parliament so divided that in 1642 it split into two Parliaments, each with a Lords and a Commons.  I trust that current events won't result in a nine-year civil war followed by the abolition of Parliament and a military dictatorship!

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 21, 2019, 15:09:09 PM
Well, I’m happy to accept that the current mess in terms of statecraft is the worst since the civil war on the basis that it is certainly worse than Suez.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 21, 2019, 15:45:59 PM
But not as bad as Thatchers Poll Tax !!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 21, 2019, 15:49:23 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Also, by your logic, anyone campaigning for Brexit shouldn't have been, cos we had a referendum result in the 70's to say we should join the EU.

That's not a logical argument, as the vote in the 70's wasn't to join the EU.

No, it was a vote to stay in..

Admittedly it wasn't known as the EU back then. It was the EC or Common Market. We were already in and the vote in 1975 was to stay in or not.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 21, 2019, 16:11:08 PM
But not as bad as Thatchers Poll Tax !!

That was a minor affair by comparison.  Completely unjustified fuss too, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 21, 2019, 16:17:09 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Also, by your logic, anyone campaigning for Brexit shouldn't have been, cos we had a referendum result in the 70's to say we should join the EU.

That's not a logical argument, as the vote in the 70's wasn't to join the EU.

No, it was a vote to stay in..

Admittedly it wasn't known as the EU back then. It was the EC or Common Market. We were already in and the vote in 1975 was to stay in or not.

It was a vote on whether to stay in an economic community.  Since then the community has changed radically, and there ought to have been further referenda for some of the steps towards its becoming a United States of Europe.  Tony Blair promised one such referendum, then reneged. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 21, 2019, 16:40:50 PM

It was a vote on whether to stay in an economic community.  Since then the community has changed radically, and there ought to have been further referenda for some of the steps towards its becoming a United States of Europe.  Tony Blair promised one such referendum, then reneged.

Not strictly true. Some Tories claimed he did but circumstances under which he said he would changed.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 21, 2019, 18:24:03 PM
Yep, due to the remainers spending the last two years trying to frustrate the process rather than putting their personal views to one side and helping to deliver the best outcome in line with the referendum outcome.
Also, by your logic, anyone campaigning for Brexit shouldn't have been, cos we had a referendum result in the 70's to say we should join the EU.

Also, in 1975 the initial referendum was enacted before a further one 41 years later. We haven't even enacted the 2006 result and non democrats such as yourself are asking for a further vote.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 21, 2019, 18:52:44 PM

It was a vote on whether to stay in an economic community.  Since then the community has changed radically, and there ought to have been further referenda for some of the steps towards its becoming a United States of Europe.  Tony Blair promised one such referendum, then reneged.

Not strictly true. Some Tories claimed he did but circumstances under which he said he would changed.

Well, he seized on an excuse - "It's not a constitution now, only a treaty".  As the treaty effectively established a constitution, the referendum should have gone ahead.  Typical Eurocrat chicanery.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 21, 2019, 19:19:18 PM
But not as bad as Thatchers Poll Tax !!

That was a minor affair by comparison.  Completely unjustified fuss too, in my opinion.


I have fond memories of the Community Charge. It existed for only about one year (1990-91) and I remember getting my first bill from Wandsworth Borough Council for the shocking sum of £Zero!  I had to check that it was not a fake bill from Wadworth brewery.

I was living in the Southfields grid on the border with Merton Borough Council (just inside the Wandsworth side) and there were riots in central London with police cars set on fire and houses just yards away from me on the Wimbledon side were paying full size bills of about several hundred £s per adult in the house.  Unfortunately, I moved to Wimbledon in 1990 and found that full on rates were quickly restored ...

Community charge was a fair system badly implemented by another female dictator who failed to listen to details about problems. Those problems in reality brought down Mrs T.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 21, 2019, 22:20:16 PM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)



Revoke Article 50 Petition Nearly At 2 Million Votes.
1 Million People Marching Through London This Weekend For Staying In The Eu

Will The Government Listen I Doubt It.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 21, 2019, 23:31:38 PM
That's nearly as many people as marched against the hunting ban. 

Frankly, the EU is a racket and I'm amazed that anyone below the level of the biggest businesses or leading politicians and bureaucrats could want to stay inside it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 22, 2019, 02:04:30 AM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)

Revoke Article 50 Petition Nearly At 2 Million Votes.
1 Million People Marching Through London This Weekend For Staying In The Eu

Will The Government Listen I Doubt It.


When the petition grows to over 17 million, it will be significant.  Until then, it is simply remoaners remoaning ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 22, 2019, 08:12:24 AM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)



Revoke Article 50 Petition Nearly At 2 Million Votes.
1 Million People Marching Through London This Weekend For Staying In The Eu

Will The Government Listen I Doubt It.

What a weird view of democracy you have Maxi. So 1.5% of the population march to stay in the EU and based on that we should overturn a democratic vote??
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on March 22, 2019, 09:04:36 AM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584)



Revoke Article 50 Petition Nearly At 2 Million Votes.
1 Million People Marching Through London This Weekend For Staying In The Eu

Will The Government Listen I Doubt It.

That epetition is a load of rubbish, there was a guy on the BBC comments page bragging that he had signed it 20 times in an hour and encouraging others to do the same.

Why should the Government listen? just because you're shouting the loudest, doesn't mean you're the majority.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on March 22, 2019, 11:03:15 AM
I think that may be fake news I'm told that the signatories are verified by email, they sign giving their name, post code, and email address and receive an email they answer in verification.
The speed at which this petition to parliament has grown is significant and at the very least will result in a parliamentary debate I'm not sure it will change the situation.
Looking at the petition site it seems that 1,700+ had signed in SW Wilts the pattern nationwide does seem to confirm Baldy's belief that it is being signed mainly by remainers.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 22, 2019, 13:38:17 PM
In defense of Mrs May, she is the mouthpiece of all the Whitehall mandarins who are trying to deliver a Brexit fair for all. she must have the strength of Samson to endure all this BUT OH to have a PM as , Jaminda Arden , PM of New Zealand,
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 22, 2019, 16:24:27 PM
Quote
What a weird view of democracy you have Maxi. So 1.5% of the population march to stay in the EU and based on that we should overturn a democratic vote??


How Many Are Left On The Nigel Farage Brexit Betrayal Walk, Last Time I looked it was about 50.Started At 200.

 leavers conned the public, stole the referendum and are now moaning as the Remainer rebellion grows?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 22, 2019, 20:20:57 PM
Oh dear Maxi, you have really lost the plot, and your posts are becoming more delusional each week. You really need to try and accept that the majority did not agree with you, and in a democracy that is what matters.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 23, 2019, 01:14:46 AM
https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1108687643661996033






Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 23, 2019, 08:35:49 AM
Please Don't Resort To Insults Shizzy I have Not Done That To You.

I Care What Happens To The Economy Even If You Do Not.

Forget The 2016 Referendum, all The Opinion Polls Indicate That The Nation Has Now Changed Its Mind Now They Know What Brexit Looks Like.

The economy is now 2% smaller than it would have been if the United Kingdom had chosen to remain in the bloc, according to the Bank of England. The economic output lost since the referendum is worth about £800 million ($1 billion) per week, or £4.7 million ($6 million) per hour
The United Kingdom was the fastest growing G7 economy when voters went to the polls in 2016. Emergency action by the Bank of England helped the UK economy avoid the recession that some had predicted would follow a vote in favor of Brexit, and unemployment remains very low
But the country still fell toward the bottom of the G7 ranking. Economic growth has slumped from an annual pace of around 2% to less than 1% now.
Investment by UK companies stalled after the referendum and then plunged 3.7% in 2018. Meanwhile, the rest of the G7 has seen business investment grow around 6% a year since the vote.
Many banks have set up new offices in Germany, France, Ireland and other EU countries to safeguard their regional business after Brexit. Financial services companies also have to move substantial assets there to satisfy EU regulators. Assets worth at least £1 trillion ($1.3 trillion) are leaving the country,
Manufacturing companies, which need their supply chains to function seamlessly, have also made changes. Nissan (NSANF) has scrapped plans to build a new model in the United Kingdom, citing uncertainty over Brexit. German engineering group Schaeffler (SCFLF) is shutting two of its three factories in Britain for the same reason.
Brexit is a dead horse, a form of nationalist energy that started to decompose rapidly on June 24th, 2016, as soon as it entered the field of political reality. It can’t go anywhere. It can’t carry the British state to any promised land. It can only leave it where it has arrived, in a no-man’s land between vague patriotic fantasies and irritatingly persistent facts. But equally, because of the referendum result, the British state can’t get down off the dead horse and has to keep flogging it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 23, 2019, 09:06:40 AM
Maxi

Choosing a policy that slightly depresses the economy is hardly anything unusual. The Labour Party succeeds in crashing the economy into a recession every time it is in power (NB. A recession is far worse than a reduced increase).

You are simply moaning about a policy that you don't like and quoting figures without any citation or sources identified at all.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on March 26, 2019, 07:46:52 AM
OMG ...

This terrible disastrous useless tin-eared weak wobbly prime minister has actually managed to make Gordon Brown look good.

I am embarrassed for the Conservative party that they have saddled the country with such an awful person with next to no leadership qualities at all.

Awful, awful, awful ....


Truly awful ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 26, 2019, 08:12:09 AM


Forget The 2016 Referendum,

True Maxi style democracy. You sound like a tin pot dictator ignoring an election result. You would probably feel more at home in Venezuela, where this type of politics flourishes.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 28, 2019, 17:16:16 PM
when JRM had his champagne party after the initial defeat of the Brexit vote held because he thought it would be the worst thing for us, why NOW with no alteration to the brexit deal does he vote for it!!! Up until now i have held respect for his views, but now utterly disgusted, as to, i am with parliament. Mrs May has done her best with the Whitehall mandarins, but now offers it to our pathetic parliament to have eight attempts to do what she cant....and the result.... utter s.....t
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 28, 2019, 20:01:41 PM
Jacob Rees-Mogg is an arrogant priviledged little twerp who cares not a jot for anyone but himself.

As soon as he gets a whiff that the PM's job might be up for grabs he completely changes his mind and decides that May's deal is now worth voting for. How could you ever trust someone like that?

He has screwed every business in the country just to feather his own bed. BoJo is just as bad.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 28, 2019, 20:05:47 PM
The fact that none of the eight different Brexit strategies voted on got a majority just goes to show that every person who voted leave had a different idea of what they wanted.

The best deal we could have with the EU is the one we already have.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 30, 2019, 14:57:30 PM
Are we leaving then or what???
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Dana Scully on March 30, 2019, 17:51:09 PM
I left last night :D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on March 30, 2019, 18:26:02 PM
someone said on radio
"hello Mr Tusk, Hello the euorpem government  here, just to inform you we have left the Eu, and look forward in  hearing from you soon, nice to see yo to see you nince!!!!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 31, 2019, 08:05:32 AM
The fact that none of the eight different Brexit strategies voted on got a majority just goes to show that every person who voted leave had a different idea of what they wanted.



Proves Parliament are a bunch of remainers, who will not act on the result of the Referendum. 29th March 2019, the day democracy died in the UK.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 31, 2019, 09:22:34 AM
In a democracy, no result is permanently binding, as any democratic decision can be undone by a new democratic decision. If that were not the case, it would not be a democracy.
In a democracy, we can campaign for whatever we believe in, even after losing a vote.
But here’s a question for all Leavers: what kind of Brexit did you actually vote for? The answer has to be that you didn’t vote for any kind of Brexit. No one defined what Brexit meant.
Leave was just one word, and the implications of it were never properly spelt out. Brexit didn’t mean Brexit. Leave didn’t mean leave. It was never detailed.
Like a broken record, Prime Minister Theresa May says there cannot be another vote on Brexit.
“The people were given a vote,” she says . “The people’s vote happened in 2016. And the people voted to leave.”
◾But the people didn’t vote for an almighty, calamitous mess.
◾The people didn’t vote to have vital foods and medicines in short supply.
◾The people didn’t vote to be poorer.
◾The people didn’t vote to trash our economy – which before the referendum was the fastest growing in the G7 (now it’s the slowest).
◾The people didn’t vote to put at risk peace in Northern Ireland.
◾The people didn’t vote for utter uncertainty and chaos, just weeks before we are due to leave.
Now we know what Brexit means, we need a new vote on that, for the very first time.
And if the country votes to reject it, and to remain in the EU, it will mean that’s the new ‘will of the people’.
As Conservative MP David Davis said, ‘If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 31, 2019, 09:54:38 AM
The people voted to leave despite the most appalling warnings of Armageddon from the Remain side.  No-one can honestly say that there weren't plenty of predictions of disaster.  The "almighty, calamitous mess" has been created by those trying to sabotage that democratic decision - they seem to be working to bring about the catastrophes they forecast, by something which looks very close to treason.  I'm hoping for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April, in the expectation of short-term economic problems which will be a small price to pay for the restoration of sovereignty.

Who's spelt out the consequences of staying in the EU?  Who wants to be part of an undemocratic federal state with increasingly totalitarian interference in the lives of its citizens?  Who wants to be ruled by unelected Eurocrats such as Juncker, Barnier and Tusk who have shown themselves to be utterly dishonest? 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 31, 2019, 10:12:40 AM

◾But the people didn’t vote for an almighty, calamitous mess.
◾The people didn’t vote to have vital foods and medicines in short supply.
◾The people didn’t vote to be poorer.
◾The people didn’t vote to trash our economy – which before the referendum was the fastest growing in the G7 (now it’s the slowest).
◾The people didn’t vote to put at risk peace in Northern Ireland.
◾The people didn’t vote for utter uncertainty and chaos, just weeks before we are due to leave.



That is just your interpretation, no fact.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 31, 2019, 10:17:00 AM

◾But the people didn’t vote for an almighty, calamitous mess.
◾The people didn’t vote to have vital foods and medicines in short supply.
◾The people didn’t vote to be poorer.
◾The people didn’t vote to trash our economy – which before the referendum was the fastest growing in the G7 (now it’s the slowest).
◾The people didn’t vote to put at risk peace in Northern Ireland.
◾The people didn’t vote for utter uncertainty and chaos, just weeks before we are due to leave.



That is just your interpretation, no fact.

So your interpretation is that they DID vote for all that then.

Bit irresponsible?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 31, 2019, 10:17:11 AM
In a democracy, no result is permanently binding, as any democratic decision can be undone by a new democratic decision.

You must at least carry out the result of the first vote.

If a tin pot dictator lost an election and said "oh well I won't abide by that result lets have another election" the Western democracies would be up in arms.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 31, 2019, 10:18:40 AM

◾But the people didn’t vote for an almighty, calamitous mess.
◾The people didn’t vote to have vital foods and medicines in short supply.
◾The people didn’t vote to be poorer.
◾The people didn’t vote to trash our economy – which before the referendum was the fastest growing in the G7 (now it’s the slowest).
◾The people didn’t vote to put at risk peace in Northern Ireland.
◾The people didn’t vote for utter uncertainty and chaos, just weeks before we are due to leave.



That is just your interpretation, no fact.

So your interpretation is that they DID vote for all that then.

Bit irresponsible?

Actually I voted remain, and I don't believe any of Maxi's predictions. I do believe my view lost the referendum, and the result must be abided by. I feel this is  asad day for democracy in this country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on March 31, 2019, 12:01:57 PM
  I'm hoping for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April



irresponsible!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on March 31, 2019, 13:25:31 PM
Quote
I feel this is  asad day for democracy in this country

There are a number of examples of referendums in Europe which have been ignored by the government of the day.

The most recent and striking example was in July 2015 when the Greek people voted by about 61 per cent to 39 per cent to reject harsh austerity policies sought by the EU and other global institutions in exchange for a multi-billion-pound bailout. 
Despite the vote, the left-wing government in Athens, fearing the country’s banks and economy would collapse, agreed shortly afterwards to even tougher austerity measures.

In 2008, Ireland threw the EU into chaos when it became the only country to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty – and voters rejected it by a majority of 53 per cent. In order for the treaty to become law, it had to be ratified by all member states.
Amid concern that attempts to streamline and formalise the workings of the EU were being held up by one relatively small member state, Irish and EU politicians urged people to think again. A new referendum was held in 2009 and this time 67 per cent of voters backed the treaty.

Ireland also voted against the earlier Nice Treaty in a referendum in 2001 but supported it in a second vote the following year, after a number of reassurances including that it would not have to join a common defence policy.

Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on March 31, 2019, 13:31:14 PM
No history of referendums being ignored in the in the UK though
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 31, 2019, 13:31:52 PM
A referendum is binding if it's declared to be such - as when David Cameron said "We will implement what you decide".

The Irish got bribes, the Greeks got punishment beatings, just as we're getting now.  Standard EU practice - if the voters give the wrong answer, make them vote again until they get it right.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on March 31, 2019, 13:33:01 PM
  I'm hoping for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April


irresponsible!

Evidently a favourite word of yours.  I don't accept your slur.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on March 31, 2019, 16:54:44 PM

Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign.
True, but both major party's stated in their manifestos for the 2017 GE that they would honour the result of the referendum, and indeed both party's voted for the implementation of Article 50, and that is legally binding unless rescinded.

If a GE were called and all party's set out their intentions on the EU issue voters would be able to decide who they elected to power, this therefore is the only real alternative to the PMs options of hard, soft, or slow.

As things stand at the moment the official line for both the major party's is leave, what is different however is how the UK leaves. This of course could change as both party's have significant numbers of remain MPs, although the Conservative membership seems to lean more toward leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on March 31, 2019, 18:59:37 PM
The people voted to leave despite the most appalling warnings of Armageddon from the Remain side. 
But with the promises on the sides of busses, etc. And by a campaign now shown to break the law.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 01, 2019, 06:50:37 AM
  I'm hoping for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April


irresponsible!

Evidently a favourite word of yours.  I don't accept your slur.

A word I wish I didn’t need to use.

However if you prefer I can use any of these:

   reckless, rash, careless, thoughtless, incautious, unwise, imprudent, ill-advised, ill-considered, injudicious, misguided, heedless, unheeding, inattentive, hasty, overhasty, precipitate, precipitous, wild, foolhardy, impetuous, impulsive, daredevil, devil-may-care, hot-headed, negligent, delinquent, neglectful, remiss, careless of one's duty, lax, slack, uncaring, casual, insouciant
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 01, 2019, 08:44:34 AM
If being in the EU is the only way for an economy to prosper how do countries outside the EU manage?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 01, 2019, 08:46:22 AM
Not so well.... or they're not physically in Europe?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 01, 2019, 09:10:51 AM
or they're not physically in Europe?

How does that make a difference? How does a country outside Europe manage to have a successful economy but a country physically in the European continent not?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on April 01, 2019, 09:33:49 AM
the arguments on this forum are indicative of the split feeling across the country, no one will be happy depending on whose side your on.
Politicians will philander, as they have always done, but regardless, Tomorrow will come and tomorrow will go, it will be sunshine and rain, we will send our children to school to help them learn, in order to create a life form themselves. We we still grow food, and the world will continue. we may have lost the security  of the  old Common Market, but we will have to start again and sell ourselves as a great island nation
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 01, 2019, 10:56:39 AM
All completely un-necessarily though Dorian due to the mainly misguided folk who voted to leave the EU.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on April 01, 2019, 11:02:59 AM
or the weak or misguided David Cameron who place us in this debacle
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 01, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
All completely un-necessarily though Dorian due to the mainly misguided folk who voted to leave the EU.

Why can you not understand that there was a referendum, and the majority voted to leave the EU. It really isn't a difficult concept, and despite your wish and my wish to remain in the EU this was not the outcome. Do you really want to live in a country that ignores democratic votes because you don't agree with the result.

Ignoring the result would set a dangerous precedent. What if Labour under JC won a general election. Many believe that would damage the country's economy, do we then ignore the result and keep having general elections until we get a non Labour government?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on April 01, 2019, 12:47:51 PM
“Winning the EU referendum was like 'winning' an STD. You can keep telling yourself that the STD was a price worth paying for brief a moment of ecstasy, but - unless treated/revoked - the long-term health implications will be hugely regrettable.”

This tweet tickled me earlier today.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 01, 2019, 13:03:09 PM
But the losing party, and their supporters could argue that for every general election. Is there any point in voting for anything in the future if the losers don't like it and keep insisting on re running the vote until they get the reust they want.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 01, 2019, 14:24:44 PM
But this isn't just a four or five year bunch of tossers getting elected to parliament. Nobody really cares about that. This is the future of this country for generations to come. The implications are enormous and nobody really knew at the time of the referendum what they were. they are still unsure.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 01, 2019, 14:40:19 PM
Labour (under JC) could easily trash the UK economy for generations in just 4 or 5 years. JC and McDONALD trumpeted Venezuela's economic plans FFS, look at the place now.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 01, 2019, 16:40:49 PM
Labour (under JC) could easily trash the UK economy for generations in just 4 or 5 years.

Which is why any sensible person wouldn't vote for them...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Damnit on April 03, 2019, 09:50:15 AM
Thought this was brilliant!
Interesting letter from a lady called Ruth Newton to John Bercow:
'My letter to Westminster sent at 4am 24th March, 2019.
Dear Mr Bercow,
My name is Ruth Newton, i am 57 years of age and i live in Preston Lancashire. However, it has become more and more apparent in recent days that in your eyes and the eyes of the so called House of Westminster that i am a nobody. I am not a Politician, i am not a Celebrity, i am not a Barrister nor a Banker, i do not run a Business, i am a Mother and a housewife, i left school at Easter 1978, my reason being was that i was offered a job as a switchboard operator, something i always wanted to do and loved doing, but not because i was too thick and stupid to do anything else. The company in question couldn't wait until summer to fill the position so between myself and my parents advice i made a decision to leave school slightly earlier as i had no wish to go to college or university we felt that this was an offer i couldn't refuse. But let me make one thing very clear, far too many people like you make a judgement on someones intelligence on the mere basis of whether or not they attended University, that seems to be the general trend today and the million dollar question in order to get anywhere, and seems to be the influence when making an assumption about someones ability and capability to understand basic facts. THAT is precisely what you, every Politician within Westminster and the Media have just done to 17.5 million people in this country. You have ALL made an assumption that 17.5 million members of the British Public have absolutely no idea what their talking about, or that maybe their general level of intelligence isn't up to scratch. Well please allow me to enlighten YOU on some of the facts that the likes of you are obviously not intelligent enough to understand, either through lack of basic education which i doubt is the case, OR ignorance and arrogance, the latter being the most likely. Firstly, it seems to me personally that the Politicians have forgotten exactly who their employers are, Theresa May does not pay their wages or yours, the Queen does not pay their wages or yours, WE your employers pay your wages, the Plumbers, the Electricians, the Builders, the Cleaners, the Police, the Nurses, the Street Cleaners, the Fire Service, the Shop Assistants, the Engineers, the Bakers, the Mechanics, The Carers, the Teachers, the Doctors, the Taxi Drivers, the Lollipop Ladies, the Dinner |Ladies etc etc etc etc need i go on? all of whom are under paid and unappreciated by Westminster, yet they are your employers, they are everything this country once stood for, the backbone, the very essence of what makes this country tick and what once made this country GREAT. Those are the people you have to answer to, those are the people you have to report to, and those are the people who can sack you in a New York minute via VOTES. These are the basic facts that you and the Politicians of ALL parties have either forgotten, or chosen to ignore.
If when i worked, and regardless of where i worked i continuously turned up late, or i was continuously having days off without good reason, or that i ignored my boss and did the job as i wanted to do it rather than the way he/she expected me to do it i would eventually be sacked and replaced without question. Whether or not i thought MY way was better would be completely irrelevant, as i was there to do the job i was employed and paid to do, that's hardly rocket science, it's the way things work.
So i suggest that YOU go back to Westminster, gather your heard of leaches and explain how it works. You tell THEM that at their Employers request they either do the job they are paid to do, and may i just add very well paid to do, resign, or be sacked. They must pack a bag, pick out their most comfortable walking shoes, get on a bus or a train paid for out of their own pockets and go back to their individual constituencies and knock on the doors of their Employers instead of sitting in their comfortable safe haven called Westminster, laughing, smirking, using their mobile phones or falling asleep whilst debating such serious matters.
Come and speak to the people who gave you the privileges NONE of you deserve, face the music, face the backlash of your arrogant actions, look into the faces of the people who can take away those privileges just as quick as they gave them to you and without another single thought. That is what YOU Mr Bercow must tell the cheats, the liars, the corrupt arrogant politicians and as a matter of urgency.
Should they choose not to take the advice of their Employers then the consequences i can assure you will be costly and will be felt for generations to come....that is the burden you and they must live with, holding you and the politicians solely responsible..its the price you pay for arrogance, betrayal and deceit.
Finally, should you decide to Revoke Article 50 or continue down the road of planning a second referendum, going against the very foundations on which democracy was built and stands for, then the one thing i very personally and sadly feel is that you should then do the right and justified act of abolishing ALL commemorative events in connection with the British Legion and the people who gave their lives in both two world wars and including recent conflicts in the name of that democracy, as to continue with such a farce, a lie and utter disloyalty would be like trampling on them whilst they lay dying in the trenches, it would be like drilling holes in the boats and crafts that took 1000's of brave young men to Normandy, in the full knowledge that they were going to die, but drowning them before they got there. It would be like spitting in their faces and sniggering at their family members left behind. A pointless act, and an act of betrayal, and all for what? The Politicians would then have no right to be seen laying wreaths at Cenotaphs across the country, or wearing poppies with pride, none of us would, we would have lost and given up that right because WE allowed the death of democracy to happen.
WE would ALL be responsible for having let them down and failed them...that, being the FINAL INSULT.
We the people of this country are not thick, uneducated, ignorant nor arrogant, and we are certainly not nobodies...we are driven purely by fairness, loyalty and above all passion, a passion for democracy, and once that passion is betrayed and democracy is lost, it will never be returned. That is not what i want for my Grandchild, and the thought of it breaks my heart.
Democracy is priceless Mr Bercow, and that is what YOU must enforce through the will of the people and their voice. It's your job.
.
Yours sincerely
Ruth Newton.'
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 07, 2019, 21:06:30 PM
I think the PM deserves a triple A rating.  - ie. AAA.


Absolutely, astonishingly awful.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 08, 2019, 17:58:47 PM
Peter Oborne Of The Daily Mail has written this interesting article Titled I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/ (https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on April 08, 2019, 18:29:21 PM
Peter Oborne Of The Daily Mail has written this interesting article Titled I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/ (https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/)
Fraser Nelson of the Spectator has gone the other way, previously an ardent remainer and Europhile is a leaver, so it's a two way street.  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/with-some-sadness-ill-vote-to-leave-an-undemocratic-and-decaying/ Despite the mess that this government has made of the leave negotiations, Fraser speaking on Radio 4 today still supports and beleives in leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 11, 2019, 10:26:22 AM

  I'm hoping for a no-deal Brexit on 12 April, in the expectation of short-term economic problems which will be a small price to pay for the restoration of sovereignty.



Well that ain't happening - thank god!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 11, 2019, 13:48:31 PM
Hmmmm.

The Tories will have a new leader and we will have a new PM soon.

He or she will be a proper Brexiteer not a remainer trying in a half-hearted way to do BREXIT.

Plans to prepare for "no deal" will then happen properly and then stand by for leave really meaning leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 11, 2019, 14:27:12 PM
You're joking right?

No proper Brexiteer would touch the job with a barge pole all the time negotiations are going on. May has been sacrificed, the knives are out! As soon as we actually leave the EU, the rats will come out of their lairs and start sniffing around for the PM job.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 11, 2019, 17:19:58 PM
Well, the timing of a Tory leadership contest will be governed by the current PM either resigning or being removed not whether the UK has yet left the EU.

As far as I understand it, the Tory party leader cannot be removed until December under current rules UNLESS:

Either

1.  The party executive board simply decide that they have the power to remove their leader for good reasons (eg. the leader is destroying the party by staying in power), OR;

2. 10,000 party members' signatures are submitted requesting a rule change of the Conservative Party constitution, which would lead to a poll of all party members on the point raised.

Indeed, I understand that several Tory constituency association chairmen around the country have already started the petition and signatures are currently being raised very quickly. This may mean that 1. above actually happens before the 10,000 is reached.

Tories I know are really concerned that the PM is wrecking their party by her useless attempts to negotiate anything because she tends to do more harm than good at anything she does ...

So, we could well have a Tory leadership contest within weeks regardless of whether the BREXIT process has been agreed in parliament or not ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 11, 2019, 18:30:45 PM
Well, looks like there will be European elections here in the UK. I wonder if they will be treated as a referendum by leavers and remainers?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on April 11, 2019, 18:50:22 PM
Quote
proper Brexiteer

Like David Davis who promised the row of the summer in 2017 and then immeadiately rolled over, or negotiated most of the withdrawal agreement and then resigned alongwith Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary because he didn't like what They had negotiated. Or Dominic Raab Brexit Secretary who failed to understand the importance of Dover to the UK economy? Or Daniel Hannan who claimed that no one was talking about leaving the single market or Aaron Banks who said before the referendum that Increasingly the Norway option looks the best for the UK?
May has been awful failure, but to claim a "proper brexiteer" could have done better is laughable as she put them in charge of the negotiations and only stepped in once they failed.

Remains project fear may have overstated the initial impact but most of their claims are slowly coming true.

Cheers

M
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 11, 2019, 19:10:40 PM
M

The problem for David Davis was that Mrs May set the parameters for dealing with the EU, who just gave take it or leave it options.

What was required all along was a strong negotiator who was able to threaten to walk away if the EU did not act reasonably.

All we have got under Mrs May as a result of botching the negotiations is a complete capitulation by the UK to the terms the EU wanted, which almost no-one in the UK likes at all. The whole "negotiation" has been botched and needs to be restarted from scratch..

I don't know what will actually happen now, but I hope that Boris and Amber Rudd agree to run as a dream pair, with Boris in charge of overall negotiations as PM (obviously taking advice from a real expert like Jacob Rees-Mogg on the details) so that all the proper preparations are made for a managed and smooth "no deal" .... which will panic the EU into agreeing better compromise terms giving us access to the single market without tariffs and the ability to negotiate our own trade deals with non-EU countries .... whilst agreeing to stay in close conformity with EU standards because its a reasonable EU request and ensures we can trade with the single market.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on April 11, 2019, 20:09:05 PM
Baldy,

The only statement I can agree is that the negotiations need to start again, everything else as far as I understand it is just wishful thinking. The EU will not panic in a no deal situation. It will hurt but the pain will be much greater for us, German car makers will not press Merkel to compromise on the single market. Yes we are the 5 or 6 th largest economy but that is based primarily on supplying services, VW, BMW and Mercedes will survive quite comfortably with reduced access to market of 50m people, Jaguar will feel much more pain if access to a market of 400m is reduced. The EU know this and so does the rest of the world, Liam Fox has failed to get more than a handful of trade agreements rolled over and this is because other countries are waiting to see what deal we get with the EU, as they also know it is likely to be weaker than our current arrangements.

We will not get a good deal from the US, they exercise economic warfare. The US may not like tariffs but they do really like non tariff barriers. Most countries have mutual recognition of standards for example cars made in the eu or Japan can be sold all over the world, except in one market - the US. They deliberately have differing standards and that is to protect their own industry. They will not make an exception for the UK. The US does have trade disagreements with the EU but because the EU economy is the equal of America the is a sort of trade detente.
Rees-Mogg is a failed politican, he has achived nothing other than a safe west country seat, John Major whom Mogg alledgedly despises had held ALL of the great offices of State at a younger age than Mogg is now without any of the educational benefits Mogg has had.

Sorry for the long post

M
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 11, 2019, 20:58:25 PM
well, I think everything you've just said is nonsense based on unfounded assertions that Project Fear started.

The reality is that the EU is fast heading into a real recession without us. The Germans will be left to plug the EU finances without the UK's contribution and the German car industry exports to us far more than we export to Germany. It's just nonsense to suggest that BMW etc are relaxed about losing the UK market ...

As for JRM being a political failure, this is purile nonsense.
He was first elected as an MP in 2010 in his home county of Somerset. BREXIT has been a major issue the whole time and lately he's been chair of the ERG group of Tory MPs which campaigns for a clean BREXIT.  He's not yet been appointed to any government post but this is due to the failure of the two PMs he's had as party leaders to appreciate his talents rather than any reflection on him.  Heck -- I'd like to be a political failure like him if being an MP and rising star means this label.


It's not relevant to compare him with John Major who barely expressed any strong views on anything contentious to keep sliding up the greasy pole of government positions until he was made PM ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on April 11, 2019, 22:09:37 PM
They are not unfounded assertions, I did not say BMW would be relaxed, they are better placed to manage a no deal than Jaguar will be based purely on market access.  That is not opinion, that is fact. Likewise not one German car manufacturer has failed to support the EU protection of its single market. The Germans wont lose access to our market, their cars will just cost more (as will domestically produced vehicles because much of the supply chain is in the EU)
The claim that Germans will buckle because they export more to us is classic case of miss using data. Yes the EU collectively exports more in cash terms to the UK than we do to them, but when looked at in % terms a different picture emerges, the UK sends about 44% of its exports direct to the EU (this avoids the Rotterdam effect which lifts the % to nearer 60), they in return only send about 8% of their exports to the UK and that 8% equates to about 53% of our total imports. Again these are all verifible facts,  don't believe me, you can check via the Commons Library.
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of John Major, he was Foreign Secretary, Chancellor and PM, he was also the last Tory leader to actually win a general election until Camerons surprise win. You don't achieve any of that without being politically astute
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 11, 2019, 22:28:24 PM
No-deal Brexit planning winds down with 'immediate effect'


https://news.sky.com/story/no-deal-brexit-planning-winds-down-with-immediate-effect-sky-sources-11691005 (https://news.sky.com/story/no-deal-brexit-planning-winds-down-with-immediate-effect-sky-sources-11691005)


Looks Like No Deal Will Never Happen Thank Goodness
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 12, 2019, 07:51:59 AM
Not sure Brexit will ever happen.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 12, 2019, 11:26:17 AM

Allister Heath writes in the Telegraph:

With poll ratings as bad as John Major, the PM risks leading the Tories into electoral oblivion
And they cannot afford another dud leader

It takes genuine skill to be this bad at politics, to simultaneously repel old and young, Remainers and Brexiteers, urbanites and rural dwellers, Left and Right. In years to come, political scientists will study Theresa May’s time in office with morbid fascination, dissecting her unique knack for alienating every group of voter bar none.

They will reflect on her broken promises, her breathtakingly poor communication skills, her self-imposed isolation, her pointless micro-management, her abject inability to lead, her squandering of one of the greatest opportunities for political realignment in British history.

Their conclusion, surely, will be that never before had such a mediocre apparatchik been so over-promoted, landing us with a prime minister entirely unsuited to the art of statecraft. They will wonder how she remained for so long in Downing Street at a time when somebody truly exceptional was required, and why her party failed to remove her, even after it had become clear that she was taking the Tories to the brink of annihilation.

Lord North, who gave away the New World colonies, was a far more plausible leader: in any case, American independence was one of the best things ever to happen to the world. Robert Peel split his party and robbed it of a majority for 30 years, but delivered the extraordinary bounty that was free trade.

There have been no upsides to Mrs May’s time in office: she has trashed Brexit, her party and democracy itself, all for nothing. Her modus operandi will be held up as a guide on how not to be a politician: a reverse of Machiavelli’s The Prince or of Cicero’s How to Win an Election. Her decisions were not so much Sun Tzu as sub-Marx Brothers, slapstick but without any of the laughs.

Why did nobody remind her that the purpose of politics is to maximise votes, not minimise them, historians will ask, only half in jest? She should have built a post-Brexit broad church, uniting an even greater proportion of the country around an optimistic, patriotic, generous vision for a self-governing country. Instead, she quickly blew all of that, but even after her preposterous election campaign, the Tories still collected 42.4 per cent of the vote in 2017, matching Margaret Thatcher’s 1983 result.

Yet less than two years later, and now that Brexit is in mortal peril, she is down to around 31 per cent in the polls, barely above John Major’s �30.7 per cent nadir of 1997. She has lost one in four of those who voted for her, primarily because of her failure to deliver Brexit, and over one third of her original, tentative support base from 2016. She has also legitimised Jeremy Corbyn’s party, despite its dalliance with Marxist ideas and its disgusting harbouring of anti-Semites.

She has helped create new, radicalised Brexiteer and Remainer identities, poisoning politics for years to come. Instead of absorbing the populist rebellion, and demonstrating that the mainstream can change to reflect popular views, she has turbocharged it. Her mission was to mop up Ukip and the protest movements, recreating a mass-market governing party; instead, we are back to where we were before the referendum, albeit with a much more bitter kind of fragmentation.

Most unforgivably, Mrs May has dashed the public’s trust in democracy, and proved our constitution to be fundamentally broken.

The European ballot on May 23 could easily be the worst election result the party has ever had. The Tories’ 23.1 per cent eked out in the 2014 Euros, when David Cameron was beaten by Labour and Ukip triumphed, may yet be remembered as part of a much-missed golden age.

Slowly but surely, the polls are beginning to capture the implosion in Tory support that many of us had been predicting for months. The local elections will also be grim.

European election polling conducted by Hanbury Strategy for the Open Europe think tank still puts the Tories on 23 per cent, with Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party on 10.3, Ukip (now a dreadful gang still trading under the old name) on 7.5 and the pro-Remain Change UK on 4.1. As the campaign progresses, Farage’s and Chuka Umunna’s groups are likely to improve their scores, and the Tories could conceivably fall below 20 per cent for the first time, especially if some of their supporters boycott the whole exercise.

A general election held tomorrow would probably see Labour emerge as the largest party, a catastrophic outcome for which Mrs May and her reverse Midas touch would bear the entirety of the blame.

Some of the discussion in recent days in Westminster has lost track of these fundamentals. Yes, the Tories must regain “younger” voters: the age at which people tip over to being Tories is now 51 and this needs to go down by a decade at least. The party’s related failure to appeal to more ethnic minorities could prove to be even more cataclysmic. A report by the Onward think tank makes for sombre reading, as does a separate analysis by James Kanagasooriam, one of the authors.

The Tories are being hammered by falling home ownership, the fact that graduates are now Left-wing, the politics of urbanisation and declining smaller towns, and their inability to attract more non-white voters.

All of these must be addressed: yet this, in my opinion, can be done without the Tories becoming even more Left-wing, especially given the modern youth’s fiscal conservatism and entrepreneurial leanings. Young voters tend to be Remainers, but even that could be counteracted with the right language and vision.

However, the crucial point is that everybody else is also deserting the party, including older Leavers. A proper Brexit party ought to be polling at least in the low-40s, if not higher.

Mrs May is facing total collapse: she has angered every demographic. She needs to quit as soon as possible, but that is merely a necessary, not a sufficient condition, to save the Tories and the Eurosceptic cause.

The party must select a candidate with broad appeal who can deliver a meaningful Brexit and rebuild Tory support among all groups, young and old. Can it be done? Does such a potential Tory leader even exist? Do the Tories still have it in themselves to snap back from extinction, or will they once again pick a dud?

I no longer know.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/poll-ratings-bad-john-major-…/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/10/poll-ratings-bad-john-major-pm-risks-leading-tories-electoral/?fbclid=IwAR3yR2xaO5c-AeSjHVVEbrBFQ-YFSXJc_MZYkGnyK_Tev0MSz1zjVtFJOt4)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 12, 2019, 11:31:25 AM
That article says everything and more about what I've been thinking about our worse than awful PM.


I even think she must be a total embarrassment for feminists as she is certainly no example of success ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 12, 2019, 12:19:14 PM
A depressing read, especially the liklihood of JC of becoming PM
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 12, 2019, 12:31:33 PM
The phrase "reverse Midas Touch" is one I'm going to try to remember and use ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on April 12, 2019, 13:21:47 PM
Well, looks like there will be European elections here in the UK. I wonder if they will be treated as a referendum by leavers and remainers?

Unfortuntely i think the leave vote will be split between UKIP and the Brexit Party so neither will get any seats. That will give the remainers something else to crow about.

Pete
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on April 12, 2019, 16:53:10 PM
i must be the only person that admires Mrs May. 0n on on this forum  and what she has done  in  the hours in public office without faltering. she was left in the pooh by Cameroon, and yes, miss read by Whitehall maderins going to the country when she did.
No one came up to face the farce that should never have been allowed, when Cameron decided to have a stupid referendum. with such a narrow split between the stay, and the leave, she had to steer a common ground  to agree with all..... can anyone do that ...NO
JRM shown his true colours, an Mp i had the greatest regard for, until now
so you change your leader, expecting a clean out deal/... it wont happen, because there is no one that can win this no win battle,,,,, even you baldy!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 12, 2019, 18:36:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8TfZOy76gg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8TfZOy76gg)


JRM's sister, Annunziata, is running as a candidate in the upcoming EU election for Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. I've never heard her speak before but here she is and I definitely like her.

My last recollection of her is when she ran as a Conservative Candidate in the general election in the Frome Constituency a decade or so ago and I recall that people were laughing at her name and the Tories were desperately trying to get her to allow people to use a new nickname for her such as "Nancy". She refused the nickname and insisted on using her full first name of Annunziata and she promptly lost the election in a perfectly winnable seat.

I've made up my mind to totally turn my back on the Tory Party from now on. It will never be able to apologize enough for inflicting Mrs May on the nation as a worse than useless and embarrassingly incapable person with a clear reverse Midas Touch ....  and then the imbecilicly stupid MPs actually expressed confidence in her just when it was obvious that she was simply an awful witch poisoning everything she touches ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 12, 2019, 18:46:18 PM
May was thrown under the bus by the rest of the Tories. The job she got was a poisoned chalice. Poisoned by BoJo and Gove etc. I don't know who gave her the advice to hold an election to try and increase her majority in parliament but that back fired. I suspect the same bunch of Brexiteer clowns was behind that decision knowing that it would! They've shot themselves in the foot now.

So is Baldy turning his back on the Tories to support some one time party set up by Fromage? What's the point? Win a seat in the EU parliament and then resign just as quickly? To prove what?



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 12, 2019, 18:49:53 PM
The simple aim of the new Brexit Party is to get a proper Brexit.

I'll think about what to do after that when it happens. I'll probably have left politics as a councillor by then as well ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 13, 2019, 14:13:21 PM
Ah for the good old days when only a few  on the far right voted for these policies


Now UKIP Have the same policies And probably the Brexit Party Will.
Why have we become so right wing as a country.


(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/56606289_10161559658890297_5318380461297238016_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=796ae89041335ce086018bbd673cea51&oe=5D2DDDAE)


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 13, 2019, 19:27:57 PM
Nationalism. Its been a gradual move over the last decade or so. Not just in the UK but in a lot of European countries. In my opinion a dangerous change. World wars have been raged due to its insurgence.
Title: This is how Remainers plan to destroy Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 13, 2019, 20:25:55 PM
Janet Daley writes in today's Telegraph:

This is how it’s going to go. Not long after the Easter recess, Theresa May will offer her minimally changed “deal” to Parliament yet again and, yet again, it will be defeated. In supposed desperation – but, in fact, in line with a strategy in which that result was fully anticipated – the Government will then offer Parliament a series of votes on a number of alternative proposals. These will be along the same lines as the indicative votes that famously got us nowhere. Only this time they will be for real, not just a bit of parliamentary whimsy and, crucially, they will include one that opts to stay in the customs union, which is what Labour now officially favours. That is the only option that will gain a majority, because Labour – on a whipped vote – will have to support it and the DUP probably will, too, because it alleviates (but does not eliminate) the Irish border problem.

Those combined forces would obviate the need for the Government to win over the Tory Brexiteer contingent. At last! Agreement in Parliament on a way forward which the Government can “reluctantly” accept!

On this happy note, Downing Street will decide that a second referendum really is necessary, because there are now two clear-cut proposals to put to the country: the choice between leaving the EU while staying in the customs union, or remaining in with full membership. Under those circumstances, even many of the most adamant Brexiteers in Parliament, in business and in the commentariat (including this column) will be obliged to advise voting for Remain on the grounds that it is better to be an active member of a declining, corrupt protectionist bloc than to be a passive colony of a declining, corrupt protectionist bloc.

So this time Remain will win – probably by a fairly close margin and with a lower turnout than last time, because many furious Leavers (having seen the inevitable closing of the trap) will boycott the vote – but decisively enough for the result to be valid.

At this point there arises the tricky matter of what to do about Article 50. A Commons vote on revoking it would stir up deep and eloquent resentment: in spite of the second referendum apparently overruling the first one, the actual revocation would be an alarmingly inflammatory repudiation of that earlier public judgment and would risk bringing the whole unsavoury process of pushing the country into a choice it never wanted into agonising focus.

So that will have to be fudged. Not a problem. Somehow the infinite ingenuity of Brussels and its friends in the British civil service will find a way to do this without too much fuss. Be in no doubt, even if it requires a wholly new legal mechanism being pulled out of thin air, this will be accomplished. (It will be greatly assisted by the fact that no one has ever tried to proceed with Article 50 before so there are no precedents – we can all just make this up as we go along.)

An indefinite extension probably wouldn’t cut it since this would still leave the dreaded spectre of Uncertainty hanging over trade and industry. But for the liturgical magicians of the EU this won’t be insoluble: one way or another, the words will be found and Article 50 will be suspended without creating an opportunity for an explosive confrontation in the Commons.

What happens next? My own mischievous suggestion that we use our continued membership to create havoc seems dangerously close to becoming official ERG policy (gives friendly nod to Jacob Rees Mogg) but in truth, we would not be the only disruptive element (or “force for change” to use the optimists’ language) in what will be a new era for the EU.

Apparently reliable predictions are that, after the next round of European parliamentary elections, the Strasbourg legislature will consist of about 30 per cent Eurosceptic or populist parties. The leadership of experienced British campaigners for democratic accountability and constitutional legitimacy could corral these disparate forces into a formidably coherent, conscientious legion of resistance to the centralising project. This is, we gather, precisely what Emmanuel Macron suspects, which is why he really, really wants us out.

But in addition to this new composition of the EU parliament with all its rogue elements pulling against the great unification plan (or “renaissance” as Mr Macron grandly calls it), there will be big changes at the top of the bureaucratic hierarchy. Jean Claude Juncker will be gone alas – what a gift he was to the Leave cause. Donald Tusk will come to the end of his presidency of the European Council. What had been the Brexit negotiating team – as well as those to whom it reported – will be reshuffled.

It should be possible for this to become a face-saving opportunity for the EU and its UK allies to embark on a fresh understanding. If the new Brussels oligarchy has any political judgment, it could use this moment of British capitulation not to gloat and exact revenge for the mayhem we have caused, but to declare its appreciation of the genuine problems to which Brexit drew attention. Just imagine what that might be like: an EU which suddenly announced that it understood the value of the democratic nation state and instead of demonising it was prepared to address the concerns of those voters who were making desperate, unsavoury choices because they saw that as their only recourse.

Of course, as we know, that won’t happen. The Brussels hierarchy is a self-regarding, self-generating monolith. No fresh batch of office holders will have the diplomatic cleverness to welcome us back like the prodigal son: to use our decision to stay as an invitation to treat the sensitivities of nationhood with more respect, or a population’s desire for self-determination as morally acceptable, and thus to disarm the frightening, incipient fascism that has been unleashed in Europe. In fact, maybe none of this will ever happen. Perhaps everything I have said here will turn out to be nothing but a bad dream. Feel free to take this column as a prediction – or as a warning.     

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/13/janet-daleythis-remainers-plan-destroy-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/13/janet-daleythis-remainers-plan-destroy-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 13, 2019, 21:01:24 PM
I think you have just invented a new game Baldy. Fantasy politics  :laugh:
Title: The Conservative collapse is now a national emergency
Post by: baldy on April 14, 2019, 06:12:14 AM
Today's Telegraph View:

For months this newspaper has warned that the Tories are headed for an electoral reckoning, thanks to their appalling failure to deliver a meaningful Brexit. Every week, the reply has been the same from the leadership: no one cares, people just want Brexit to go away and when it does the Government can return to the tired old certainties of, say, bailing out the NHS or banning things. But it turns out that voters really do mind that Brexit has been dangerously compromised and delayed, and many core supporters do really resent the Prime Minister’s talks with Labour.

Over the past few days, especially since March 29, the penny has dropped. There has been a precipitous and catastrophic collapse in Tory support. The result: the last five polls show Labour ahead, with a far greater fall in Conservative support among Leavers than Remainers, and the pro-Brexit parties coming up fast. Sir John Curtice writes that if these figures were extrapolated across a general election, the Conservatives would be reduced to 260 seats. Labour has lost ground in the past year, too, but not as much and it can probably count on an unholy alliance with the SNP. This could result in the triple whammy of a Jeremy Corbyn government cancelling Brexit and threatening the Union.

This is a national emergency and there is only one imaginable escape. The paralysis in the Tory parliamentary party must end – Cabinet members and MPs need to remove Mrs May now and replace her fast. They should pay attention to the advice of Lord Spicer and Lord Hamilton of Epsom, two previous chairmen of the 1922 committee, who insist it is possible to change the rules to do so. Britain needs a new prime minister who is 100 per cent committed to Brexit. They need to recapture both the trust and the imagination of the British people by pushing through a radical programme of economic reform, including tax cuts and a sea change on issues such as crime, housing and HS2.

It’s this or certain disaster. Crucially, as Sir John says, their first task has to be to win back the pro‑Brexit support that Mrs May has so needlessly squandered and without which no Conservative government is possible.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/04/14/conservative-collapse-now-national-emergency/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/04/14/conservative-collapse-now-national-emergency/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on April 14, 2019, 07:31:19 AM
Today's Telegraph View:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZaAkuXTIz4
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 14, 2019, 08:32:40 AM
i must be the only person that admires Mrs May. 0n on on this forum 

Most likely in the country, not just this forum. She is not a leader, she has displayed no leadership skills whatsoever. She inherited Brexit, but the omni shambles we now find ourselves in is of her doing. Lets not forget her disastrous time in the HO which has left the country with its highest levels of knife crime and murder. This epidemic falls squarely at the feet of Mrs May. She is the only person (maybe you as well Dorian) who can not see a link between falling police numbers and the rise in crime, the huge reduction in stop & search and the rise in knife crime.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 14, 2019, 08:44:11 AM
I am ashamed that I used to know her when I was a member of the executive committee of Wimbledon Conservative Association and Philip May was Chairman. He is a very decent genial chap. I never warmed to her as she tended to scowl a lot, hardly smiled and just looked at anyone with disdain when they asked her, as a Councillor, any difficult question.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 14, 2019, 09:04:00 AM
She is not a people person, that is clear. The woman has zero empathy. I suspect she will be judged by history as one of our worst Prime Ministers. Most PM's however bad have done at least one good thing, but for the life of me I can not think of one for Mrs May.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 14, 2019, 09:08:01 AM
I was shocked when she effectively caused the Tories to be labelled as the nasty party and so caused more damage on top of everything else going on whilst Tony Blair was PM.
Title: Grassroots Conservative chairmen planning no-confidence vote in Theresa May
Post by: baldy on April 17, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Thank God ...


An article in today's Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/16/local-conservative-chairmen-planning-no-confidence-vote-theresa/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/16/local-conservative-chairmen-planning-no-confidence-vote-theresa/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 17, 2019, 15:14:28 PM
Good news. The sooner she is replaced the better.
Title: The rise of the Brexit Party is bad news for Jeremy Corbyn
Post by: baldy on April 18, 2019, 14:56:08 PM
In today's Telegraph:   
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/18/rise-brexit-party-bad-news-jeremy-corbyn/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em


My initial thoughts: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZaAkuXTIz4

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 18, 2019, 19:14:46 PM
Not great news for the Tories either
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 18, 2019, 20:19:31 PM
Well, I'm no Tory fan any more., though I'll tend to work with and agree with true Tories as usual.

I salute Nigel.

I'm waiting to see if the Brexit Party becomes a fully fledged UK-wide independence party with Councillors, because I'll jump at the chance to see out my last 2 years at Wiltshire Council as a party member. As a member of a minority party, I'd easily qualify to remain in the Independent Group at Wiltshire Council.

In truth, rebranding as a Brexit Party councillor would actually make no difference to anything at all for me or Wiltshire Council or my work but it would make political chit chat with other councillors or anyone interested in politics a lot more interesting
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 19, 2019, 09:16:16 AM
The Brexit Party wishes to bring about a hard right no deal with eu,
which will bring about Economic Chaos in this country, and Trouble happening In northern Ireland over the Border Issue,
and the break up of the union.
if that happens,The people who wanted this will not be forgiven.


Nigel Farage never promised that Brexit “would be a huge success”, he said on LBC radio. “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off,” said Farage – who has repeatedly said we would be better off – “just that we would be self-governing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2018/jul/24/two-50-or-100-years-when-do-leavers-think-brexit-will-pay-off (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2018/jul/24/two-50-or-100-years-when-do-leavers-think-brexit-will-pay-off)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 19, 2019, 11:12:13 AM

The Brexit Party wishes to bring about a hard right no deal with eu,
which will bring about Economic Chaos in this country, and Trouble happening In northern Ireland over the Border Issue,
and the break up of the union.
if that happens,The people who wanted this will not be forgiven.

More Project Fear crap ...

A clean BREXIT will do no more than cause minor hiccups in the short term ... and in any event a responsible Government or PM would properly prepare and plan for the event.

Clearly, this needs to include sorting necessary tariffs and subsidies to protect and support our farmers and food security etc.

In the long run the UK's economy will blossom as it escapes the economic sclerosis that is overcoming the whole EU and engages more with the faster growing parts of the world.

I don't care what misquotes you try to use about Nigel, he's been pretty consistent in saying that we would be better off outside the EU for a wide range of reasons, not least because of more control over immigration and the ability to do more trade deals with faster growing parts of the world.

I am disgusted with Remoaners who simply stir crap based on crap ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 19, 2019, 22:10:52 PM
And the crap you spout is based on what?

Your own extreme views on what you think will happen! Or hope will happen. If anyone is stirring crap based on crap its you
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 19, 2019, 23:04:12 PM
...based on what?

... views on what you think will happen! Or hope will happen...

The views and opinions of real experts such as Ruth Lea, Richard Tice etc

People who are paid well for their advice or who have set up firms and know what they are doing...

As I've said before, I'm not interested in those views coming from people influenced by those afraid of short=term risk who simply worry about next year's bonus ... or those overly affected by remoaners and who are actually part of Project fear (eg. Bank of England Governor who actually gets most of his forecasts wrong - fact - and is appointed by the PM).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on April 20, 2019, 06:10:13 AM
Ruth Lea and Richard Tice are both extremists in their views and anyone who accepts them as experts on what will happen with a no deal Brexit is gullible to say the least.

Ruth Lea’s “expert” views on climate change for example are extraordinary.

Richard Tice is a proven liar.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 20, 2019, 07:34:21 AM
Rubbish. You're just making this up.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 20, 2019, 08:02:03 AM
Richard Tice “ran his own distressed debt advisory business until late 2009”.Distressed debt” is a branch of what many see as “vulture capitalism“, and involves buying up companies that have run into trouble, often because of dire economic conditions. The Guardian has described how this typically works:
“The funds circle struggling firms and buy their debt at a discount to gain control of the business. Usually hedge funds or proprietary desks at large investment banks, the funds may turn their debt into equity in a restructuring, gaining a stake or full control of the firm, or sell the assets in a liquidation, receiving a higher price for the debt than they paid for it.”

Many think that the economic chaos caused by a Hard Brexit will create the ideal conditions for “distressed debt” specialists such as Tice.


https://badboysofbrexit.com/2018/01/16/richard-tice/ (https://badboysofbrexit.com/2018/01/16/richard-tice/)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 20, 2019, 08:30:00 AM
From The Financial Times own Pages

Not Project Fear But Project Fact

   For those in despair with Britain’s political class, I bring good news. Its top economists, those without a political axe to grind, made excellent Brexit forecasts both before and shortly after the June 2016 referendum. Politics might be in meltdown, but economics (this time) has been on the money.

The lesson is simple: listen to economists, but not to those peddling a political line. With such a good record over the first two-and-a-half years of the Brexit saga, it is not surprising the mainstream is still singing a similar tune about the long-term Brexit effects as they were three years ago. It will hurt, they say, potentially quite a lot.

No deal is the worst outcome; staying in the EU is best. Putting magnitudes on these general predictions, NIESR estimates the UK would miss out on a further 2.8 per cent of national income with a close relationship, rising to 5.5 per cent in a reasonably orderly no-deal scenario. These are noticeable losses.


https://www.ft.com/content/534e108a-4651-11e9-b168-96a37d002cd3 (https://www.ft.com/content/534e108a-4651-11e9-b168-96a37d002cd3)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 20, 2019, 11:54:48 AM
Richard Tice “ran his own distressed debt advisory business until late 2009”.Distressed debt” is a branch of what many see as “vulture capitalism“, and involves buying up companies that have run into trouble, often because of dire economic conditions. The Guardian has described how this typically works:
“The funds circle struggling firms and buy their debt at a discount to gain control of the business. Usually hedge funds or proprietary desks at large investment banks, the funds may turn their debt into equity in a restructuring, gaining a stake or full control of the firm, or sell the assets in a liquidation, receiving a higher price for the debt than they paid for it.”

Many think that the economic chaos caused by a Hard Brexit will create the ideal conditions for “distressed debt” specialists such as Tice.


https://badboysofbrexit.com/2018/01/16/richard-tice/ (https://badboysofbrexit.com/2018/01/16/richard-tice/)


This is simply an attempt at muck-raking about a legitimate business.

Buying distressed debt is a high risk business venture because the debts are often not repaid. Often, the business is simply going under and the obvious way to save it and recover the debt is to take it over and invest more of your own money to keep the business going and people employed and to run it properly so that profits occur to actually pay the debt back.

The story is pure crap written by a Green crap specialist.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 20, 2019, 11:59:08 AM
From The Financial Times own Pages

Not Project Fear But Project Fact

   For those in despair with Britain’s political class, I bring good news. Its top economists, those without a political axe to grind, made excellent Brexit forecasts both before and shortly after the June 2016 referendum. Politics might be in meltdown, but economics (this time) has been on the money.

The lesson is simple: listen to economists, but not to those peddling a political line. With such a good record over the first two-and-a-half years of the Brexit saga, it is not surprising the mainstream is still singing a similar tune about the long-term Brexit effects as they were three years ago. It will hurt, they say, potentially quite a lot.

No deal is the worst outcome; staying in the EU is best. Putting magnitudes on these general predictions, NIESR estimates the UK would miss out on a further 2.8 per cent of national income with a close relationship, rising to 5.5 per cent in a reasonably orderly no-deal scenario. These are noticeable losses.


https://www.ft.com/content/534e108a-4651-11e9-b168-96a37d002cd3 (https://www.ft.com/content/534e108a-4651-11e9-b168-96a37d002cd3)


Yes, we've discussed this all before.

There will be an initial short-term hit that is little different to Labour coming into office and sending interest rates up and stock markets down and the pound down in sheer fear at how much Labour will ruin the economy.

It is simply common knowledge that there will be a short-term hit as the economy adjusts to BREXIT and until new trade is established across the world.

There is no new news here - it's just all overblown because too many senior managers and directors are more concerned about their bonuses than long term growth.
Title: Today's Brexit Party Rally
Post by: baldy on April 20, 2019, 21:36:12 PM




https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1119594306166231041



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on April 21, 2019, 01:32:29 AM
(I'm Gonna Tell) 500 Lies - Nigel Farage's Brexit Party manifesto anthem

Even if you voted leave and don't agree with the message This is quite funny


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xLmI352vE&fbclid=IwAR2v_9k57gXuEoa6hPD-6mGn9pZqfYfVFVKWqpPAYkMqp_gqAtsWdHKR2B0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xLmI352vE&fbclid=IwAR2v_9k57gXuEoa6hPD-6mGn9pZqfYfVFVKWqpPAYkMqp_gqAtsWdHKR2B0)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on April 21, 2019, 10:28:30 AM
never will forget the biggest lie of all regarding the money saved from the EU budget going to support the NHS, utter lying crap
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 21, 2019, 11:45:40 AM
never will forget the biggest lie of all regarding the money saved from the EU budget going to support the NHS, utter lying crap

To be fair anyone that believed that needs their head examined. Although many did, I overheard a f'wit in Morrisons talking about it.

One thing that I did get from the election is that many folk in the Uk are just too stupid to be allowed vote on such an important topic.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 21, 2019, 15:35:24 PM
never will forget the biggest lie of all regarding the money saved from the EU budget going to support the NHS, utter lying crap


You are talking nonsense, Dorian.

It was not utter lying crap. It was basically true. The misleading bit was simply the size of the amount per week that could be saved by being out of the EU and which could be spent on the NHS or anything else.

The figure was the gross amount we have to put into the overall EU machine. It was not the correct net amount as the figure did not allow for the payments we receive back such as grants and subsidies.

It was true, sort of.

It was not wholly untrue.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 21, 2019, 15:36:14 PM
(I'm Gonna Tell) 500 Lies - Nigel Farage's Brexit Party manifesto anthem

Even if you voted leave and don't agree with the message This is quite funny


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xLmI352vE&fbclid=IwAR2v_9k57gXuEoa6hPD-6mGn9pZqfYfVFVKWqpPAYkMqp_gqAtsWdHKR2B0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-xLmI352vE&fbclid=IwAR2v_9k57gXuEoa6hPD-6mGn9pZqfYfVFVKWqpPAYkMqp_gqAtsWdHKR2B0)



It's a good bit of entertainment ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 21, 2019, 15:38:00 PM
never will forget the biggest lie of all regarding the money saved from the EU budget going to support the NHS, utter lying crap

To be fair anyone that believed that needs their head examined. Although many did, I overheard a f'wit in Morrisons talking about it.

One thing that I did get from the election is that many folk in the Uk are just too stupid to be allowed vote on such an important topic.


Er ... it was basically correct.   It was of course an exaggeration, but that was minimal compared to the outright lies put out during Project Fear.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on April 21, 2019, 15:49:59 PM
forgive me, i am not talking nonsense..basically. he made a statement, basically, that was basically a bloody ;) lie
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 21, 2019, 22:17:03 PM
forgive me, i am not talking nonsense..basically. he made a statement, basically, that was basically a bloody ;) lie


Well, then you are lying and in an utterly and fully sense.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on April 26, 2019, 07:26:18 AM
Well that's interesting BoJo's sister Rachel is standing for MEP election in our area, a remainer she stands for Chukka's CUK party.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on April 26, 2019, 07:54:24 AM
Rachel has always been a remainer and a bit of a liberal. She recently joined the Liberal Democrats, not sure why she isn't standing for them, as they are anti Brexit.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on April 26, 2019, 10:21:21 AM
Ann Widdicombe welcomed by Nigel Farage as the lead candidate for the Brexit party in the South West, going to be an interesting contest, not sure what the results will show in terms of remain or leave.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on April 27, 2019, 01:43:45 AM
Rachel has always been a remainer and a bit of a liberal. She recently joined the Liberal Democrats, not sure why she isn't standing for them, as they are anti Brexit.


I would guess that the LibDems have a long-established queue of candidates who have done their time serving the party over the years one way or another who would have caused serious disruption if someone with no known loyalty to the party was to suddenly queue jump because she has a bit of stardust that mostly comes from being sister to arch-Brexiteer Boris. She would have known this and also seen the new CUK party as open to anyone with some Remoaner and stardust qualities and with no queue to jump.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 08, 2019, 12:37:44 PM
Well now that the EU elections are on it will be interesting to see how the remainer and Brexit Party fair. I am pretty sure the electorate will see this as an opportunity to have their say and will treat it as a referendum in all but name.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 08, 2019, 13:14:30 PM
Well now that the EU elections are on it will be interesting to see how the remainer and Brexit Party fair. I am pretty sure the electorate will see this as an opportunity to have their say and will treat it as a referendum in all but name.

Really?

I think most people wont even bother to vote! I wont be voting. I predict the lowest turnout for any election ever.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 08, 2019, 14:40:59 PM
Well now that the EU elections are on it will be interesting to see how the remainer and Brexit Party fair. I am pretty sure the electorate will see this as an opportunity to have their say and will treat it as a referendum in all but name.


Me too!


I reckon turnout will be higher than normal for a stand-alone EU election (ie. when it is not at the same time as a local or general election which boosts the turnout).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 08, 2019, 16:02:56 PM
I agree, turnout is normally very low for EU elections. I would imagine Brexit Party and Change UK will galvanise their supporters to turn out as both have points to prove.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 08, 2019, 16:22:56 PM
We're leaving the EU anyway. Most people don't care about one time, one trick, party's. They wont bother voting, it wont make any difference.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 08, 2019, 16:30:09 PM
We're leaving the EU anyway. Most people don't care about one time, one trick, party's. They wont bother voting, it wont make any difference.

Not if Westminster get their way.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 13, 2019, 20:22:36 PM

Ann Widdecombe is standing as the lead candidate (at the top of the list of candidates) for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party in the upcoming Euro elections in the South West region of the UK.

This clip shows why she is a real star for Brexiteers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEyRo3OGESc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEyRo3OGESc)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 14, 2019, 07:21:43 AM
From Todays Guardian.

Next up was Ann Widdecombe. Under any normal circumstances, a celebrity joke, best known for embarrassing herself as a piss-poor panto act on reality TV shows.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 14, 2019, 11:51:28 AM
Is Fromage's Brexit party going to be illegally funded again by his rich mates?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 14, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Just had my first election literature through the post. From the Brexit Party.

The only party at the moment to respect the result of the referendum and uphold the country's democratic principles. Will be interesting to see the results of next weeks election.
Title: Cometh the hour, cometh the man – it's time for the Tories to send for Boris 
Post by: baldy on May 14, 2019, 17:51:11 PM


This should wind up the Remoaners ...   ;D


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/14/cometh-hour-cometh-man-time-tories-send-boris/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/14/cometh-hour-cometh-man-time-tories-send-boris/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on May 14, 2019, 18:15:18 PM
Quote
The only party at the moment to respect the result of the referendum and uphold the country's democratic principles. Will be interesting to see the results of next weeks election.


DEMOCRACY... WHEN A PARTY WITH NO MPs TELLS THE COUNTRY WHAT IT OUGHT TO HAVE:--------The Brexit Party


No manifesto, no elected politicians, no transparency – but gets a chair on BBCQT Last Week
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on May 14, 2019, 23:37:45 PM
Quote
The only party at the moment to respect the result of the referendum and uphold the country's democratic principles. Will be interesting to see the results of next weeks election.


DEMOCRACY... WHEN A PARTY WITH NO MPs TELLS THE COUNTRY WHAT IT OUGHT TO HAVE:--------The Brexit Party


No manifesto, no elected politicians, no transparency – but gets a chair on BBCQT Last Week

You could quite easily say the same for the Tiggers or Chukkers or whatever they are calling themselves at the moment.

Pete
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 15, 2019, 07:23:44 AM
Well, the Change UK Party does have MPs as it is a break-away new party made up of a handful of misfit and disgruntled MPs so far with very few organised supporters and very little in the way of expectations for any real result in the Euro elections. Personally, I think it will all but disappear by the next general election as the LibDems will be seen as the true Remain party in England and Wales.

The Brexit Party is of course made up of at least one current MEP and an ex MP.

Both will legitimately be running candidates in the upcoming Euro elections and it looks like the Brexit party will have a runaway landslide taking seats from UKIP, Labour and the Tories ... possibly with near Tory wipeout occurring.

Wait for the results. The results of an entirely democratic process.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 15, 2019, 07:46:44 AM
The remainers will no doubt demand another EU election, and keep demanding it until they get more seats than the BREXIT party, because after all THAT is democracy in their eyes.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on May 15, 2019, 09:57:41 AM
Well, the Change UK Party does have MPs...

But they weren't elected as Change UK MPs. I don't consider them to be legitimate unless they resign as MPs and stand in a by-election.

Pete
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 15, 2019, 10:04:23 AM
The remainers will no doubt demand another EU election, and keep demanding it until they get more seats than the BREXIT party, because after all THAT is democracy in their eyes.

That may be true of some remainers with extreme views but reality is most remainers, or to be more accurate, those who think leaving in the EU is a huge mistake, accept the referendum result albeit won under dubious circumstances.

And to be fair, it's only the extremists of the Brexiteer brigade who want to force through a 'no deal'. No number of MEP's will be able to influence that as they have no power at Westminster. European Elections at this stage are a complete waste of time and money for the UK.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 15, 2019, 10:21:19 AM


But they weren't elected as Change UK MPs. I don't consider them to be legitimate unless they resign as MPs and stand in a by-election.

Pete

Including the three former conservative ones..
Title: Theresa May is destroying the Tory party and needs to go - PROF. PATRICK MINFORD
Post by: baldy on May 16, 2019, 14:37:56 PM
Patrick Minford is my favourite economist (when he actually says anything publicly). Unfortunately, he is not on Twitter.

Here's his article in The Telegraph today:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/16/mps-have-no-time-waste-theresa-may-destroying-tory-party-needs/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/16/mps-have-no-time-waste-theresa-may-destroying-tory-party-needs/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Re: Theresa May is destroying the Tory party and needs to go - PROF. PATRICK MINFORD
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 16, 2019, 17:25:33 PM
Patrick Minford is my favourite economist (when he actually says anything publicly). Unfortunately, he is not on Twitter.

Here's his article in The Telegraph today:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/16/mps-have-no-time-waste-theresa-may-destroying-tory-party-needs/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/16/mps-have-no-time-waste-theresa-may-destroying-tory-party-needs/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)

The same Patrick Minford that said this:


In 2012, Minford told a parliamentary committee that the U.K. leaving the European Union would result in the automotive sector suffering a “big transitional loss.” He claimed that there would be more “gainers than losers” because cheaper imported cars would flood into the U.K. He agreed this would all but destroy U.K. car manufacturing.

Minford is professor of economics at Cardiff Business School, a former advisor to Margaret Thatcher and supporter of the U.K. poll tax introduced in 1989 and which led to riots in 1990. He heads the pro-Brexit campaign group Economists for Free Trade (EFT), formerly known as Economists for Brexit. This group denies climate change, preferring neoliberal-style environmental deregulation, and has been pushing for a “no deal” Brexit scenario.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 16, 2019, 17:44:06 PM
Your quote contains several misleading and / or false claims so its not surprising that you do not supply any source for it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on May 17, 2019, 16:14:47 PM
I'll bite

Source for loss of car manufacturing
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/c115-iii/c11501.htm (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/c115-iii/c11501.htm)
questions 138 onwards

Question 124 onwards is interesting too, there he recommends a 10 year transition to mitigate the shock.  He also recognises that UK will be in a weak bargining position....
Being House of Commons publication it is a record of fact not opinion

Cheers

Moggie
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 17, 2019, 17:56:27 PM
Yes, that was the part I thought might be true.

The claim about climate change is simply nonsense as no-one with any intelligence denies climate change which has been going on for ever - warmer and cooler in cycles.

What was probably meant was whether it is man-made or whether the UK drastically reducing its green-house gas emissions actually does any good for the enormous cost incurred.
Title: Boris Johnson crushes leadership rivals in poll of Tory members
Post by: baldy on May 17, 2019, 17:58:25 PM
Today's online Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226)
Title: Re: Boris Johnson crushes leadership rivals in poll of Tory members
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 17, 2019, 20:20:48 PM
Today's online Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226)

If BoJo does become PM and god help us if he does he will have to call a general election because he has no hope of passing a Brexit deal with minority at present. That would be too big a gamble as May proved.

Considering the tories hardly ever elect the favourite he won’t be PM before we Leave the EU. And he won’t want to be either. Whoever is PM before Brexit has a short political career.
Title: Bye Bye Labour -- Labour will be the first shock victim of the Brexit Party
Post by: baldy on May 18, 2019, 04:49:43 AM
Interesting Telegraph article today:




The fraudulent Labour movement will be the first shock victim of the Brexit Party
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/17/fraudulent-labour-movement-will-first-shock-victim-brexit-party/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em
Title: Re: Boris Johnson crushes leadership rivals in poll of Tory members
Post by: baldy on May 18, 2019, 09:19:17 AM
Today's online Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-crushes-leadership-rivals-in-poll-of-tory-members-6x5fcrcx3?shareToken=b141b8b4a44db031a701503fc0b16226)

If BoJo does become PM and god help us if he does he will have to call a general election because he has no hope of passing a Brexit deal with minority at present. That would be too big a gamble as May proved.

Considering the tories hardly ever elect the favourite he won’t be PM before we Leave the EU. And he won’t want to be either. Whoever is PM before Brexit has a short political career.

Well, I doubt if anyone knows what will happen but I imagine that Boris will be the new PM shortly and he will try very hard to be serious and statesman like so as to go down in history as a good PM or better.

I imagine he will run his campaign for the Tory leadership on the basis of cancelling the Barnier - May withdrawal agreement and restarting negotiations with no customs union and full free trade. I am speculating but I guess he may want to prepare for no deal first and take a year or so for full preparations and this may involve cancelling Brexit and going to a general election on the basis of of restarting Brexit and telling the EU to accept the terms wanted or the UK will leave on WTO terms having made full preparations for it.

Treasonous May ruined her negotiations by failing to prepare for no deal so that she has no negotiating position and no credibility that she could walk away.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 19, 2019, 09:26:35 AM
The issue is Boris is well liked by grass roots but not the parliamentary party, and they could scupper his chances.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 21, 2019, 08:30:14 AM
Is Fromage's Brexit party going to be illegally funded again by his rich mates?

As I suspected;

Former Labour prime minister Gordon Brown told the Guardian he had written to the Electoral Commission urging it to investigation whether the party is safeguarding adequately to prevent “dirty money” infiltrating funding.

He is due to make a speech in Glasgow about it, warning that democracy is “fatally undermined if unexplained, unreported and thus undeclared and perhaps under the counter and underhand campaign finance is being used to influence the very elections that are at the heart of our democratic system”.

“Now Mr Farage heads a new Brexit Party which is making questionable claims about the true source of its funding at a time when the Electoral Commission has warned of the dangers of multiple, small, anonymous donations being a cover for dirty money,” he will add.



source of story for Baldy's sake;
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-party-funding-nigel-farage-who-explained-overseas-dark-money-loophole/
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 21, 2019, 09:20:34 AM
This is simply a smear campaign by the UK's second worst Prime Minister since WW2 based on speculation and jealousy.


It is perfectly reasonable to believe that over a hundred thousand people have signed up to be a Brexit Party "supporter" and pay the standard £25 each.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 21, 2019, 12:50:51 PM
Well, you would say that!

This is simply a smear campaign by the UK's second worst Prime Minister since WW2 based on speculation and jealousy.


The worst being Thatcher.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 21, 2019, 13:23:49 PM
Terrible tin-eared Treasonous May
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on May 21, 2019, 18:17:35 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/breaking-brexit-theresa-may-promises-vote-on-second-referendum-in-bombshell-bid-to-pass-deal/ar-AABGDNo?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/breaking-brexit-theresa-may-promises-vote-on-second-referendum-in-bombshell-bid-to-pass-deal/ar-AABGDNo?ocid=ientp)


Theresa May promises vote on second referendum in bombshell bid to pass deal






Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 21, 2019, 21:04:25 PM
This detestable woman is just wasting time with her attempt to tempt MPs who oppose her deal with more nonsense.

As I understand it, more MPs will vote against it than before not least because they just want to make sure she just F*@Ks Off asap.

I have despised all sorts of politicians in my life for being so incompetent that they are clearly clowns but I've never before been roused to sheer hate like I feel against this terrible horrible woman who  should never have put herself forward for the job of PM when she is so out of her depth in almost every way ...




Title: LibDems say Baroness Scott would have sorted Brexit if she was PM
Post by: baldy on May 21, 2019, 21:11:46 PM
I attended the annual full meeting of  Wiltshire Council this morning and it was interesting how all the opposition leaders spoke to compliment Conservative peer Baroness Jane Scott on her achievements as Council Leader now that she has announced she will stand down on 9th July.

The LibDem leader was astonishingly glowing about her and apart from saying that she has run the council really well (all of which is true) he finished by saying that if Jane had been PM he was in no doubt that she would have delivered Brexit.

Jane was in tears and I think we were all agreeing the truth that she really would have shown everyone how to get things done.

For me to hear this from a Brexit-hating LibDem almost made my brain explode ...  I've been taking it easy all afternoon ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 23, 2019, 08:37:09 AM
Another Tory throws her toys out the pram !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48374098

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 23, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
I think she has no option. The PM won't give a date and is clearly a stubborn woman. I guess this is a tactic to push the PM into resigning earlier rather than later.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 23, 2019, 10:18:40 AM
Andrea Leadsom has explained that she had to resign to prevent herself having to put down the PM's Withdrawal Agreement Bill today for debate tomorrow in parliament when she fundamentally disagrees with elements in the Bill.

I don't think Andrea believes she can win a leadership bid, so she was probably the most likely of the Brexiteer cabinet members to make the move that finishes off Terrible Treasonous May to help the whole party get a new leader and PM.

Having said that, I reckon she will run for the leadership like many others just to help keep up her profile and collect votes to then pass on her support to Boris in later rounds of the elimination stage of the leadership contest.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 23, 2019, 15:01:50 PM
Her comments before the referendum were drastically contradictory to what she is saying now. Not a woman to be trusted!

Title: Mrs May has been Britain's worst Prime Minister and her legacy is one of failure
Post by: baldy on May 24, 2019, 20:05:10 PM
Nigel Farage has an article in the Telegraph:


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/24/mrs-may-has-britains-worst-prime-minister-legacy-one-failure/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on May 25, 2019, 09:26:00 AM
I think we get it baldy that you did not like her, so let it rest now, yes she has to carry some of blame but not everything was her fault. she was handed a poisoned chalice, and the poison within that chalice was the Tory Party. whoever takes ove,r faces the same challenges as Theresa, and as we know, we are to believe the council in Brussels wont chance their stance...... But lets wait for the election results of the Euro !!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 25, 2019, 12:06:39 PM
I’d like to see Esther Mc what’s her name as PM

She’ll be as useless as any of them but at least it’ll be a bit of eye candy  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 26, 2019, 09:03:22 AM
I think we get it baldy that you did not like her, so let it rest now, yes she has to carry some of blame but not everything was her fault. she was handed a poisoned chalice, and the poison within that chalice was the Tory Party. whoever takes ove,r faces the same challenges as Theresa, and as we know, we are to believe the council in Brussels wont chance their stance...... But lets wait for the election results of the Euro !!!

She was a useless Home Secretary as well, all those cockups were of her own making. Hopefully a new PM will empower Sajid to reverse the decisions she made then. Brexit was never going to be easy, even more so for someone who is fundamentally incompetent.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 26, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
I think the key point is that when David Cameron resigned, the UK needed the very best person who had all the essential skills needed to be a successful PM including commercial awareness and an ability to negotiate rather than plain stubbornness and an inability to communicate, empathise, lead or provide any sort of plan or vision.

In reality, she's been wholly bad on almost every level. It was crass foolishness for her to think she was in any way up to the job and deeply irresponsible to put herself with all her failings and inadequacies forward for the job.

I have to laugh at her idea that she has been an inspiration for girls as a female prime minister. In fact, she's shown that women who are not up to the job quickly get exposed for their personal failings. In her case, her failings start with her ridiculous two tone voice. Its a horrible noise that I detest. She should have had her vocal chords sorted out decades ago so that they are in tune with each other and not speaking different notes at the same time. She must be mad to think a politician at high level can be successful when their own voice is so ugly and annoying ...

I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care who the next PM is as long as they are a proper Brexiteer who originally voted Leave because any of them would be so much better than the Maybot. In truth, Mrs May has made so many mistakes that they all make it quite clear what any new PM will not do. I would be happy with Boris, Gove, Raab .... and hope it is not an original remainer.  Also, I want to see Hammond sacked as Chancellor as he is as much responsible for the failure of the Maybot's premiership as she was ... especially for talking up Project Fear nonsense and failing to allocate the money needed to properly prepare for a no deal Brexit in a full and timely way.

I think Amber Rudd is a remoaner to watch as she will be doing a deal to work with the eventual winner whilst not running for the leadership herself. I suspect she will come out near the end to endorse Boris as someone who she can work with ...

It is of course fascinating to see Amber involved at high level in all of this because during the 70s and 80s she used to live at weekends and during Summer holidays etc with her family at Chalcot House, just off the Frome Road between Westbury and Chapmanslade. I remember her regularly attending church with her family in Dilton Marsh during the time I lived there with my Dad. I see her as a very likely future PM ... maybe the one after the upcoming one ... because she really is very talented indeed. She actually has all the skills needed except maybe long experience in high office, but that will come over the next few years.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 26, 2019, 11:26:12 AM
The thing that concerned me about Amber was when she was Home Secretary she seemed to endorse all of May's cockups , and may no attempt to reverse them. Just felt a bit weak to me, unable to stand up to May.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 26, 2019, 11:42:23 AM
Baldy, you missed out her walk. That stoop she has really bugs me :)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 26, 2019, 11:43:48 AM
Dorian, maybe you could share what qualities you see she has. I would be genuinely interested as I must confess I have a real dislike for her and worried I am becoming tunnel visioned. You know what it's like when everything someone does just annoys you. Well I'm at that stage with her.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 26, 2019, 13:04:08 PM
She is a sugare dancer too.

Definitely a quality any future PM obviously needs  ::)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 26, 2019, 13:40:06 PM
Baldy, you missed out her walk. That stop she has really bugs me :)


Me too, but I don't hold her stoop against her. It would have been no issue if she had actually been any good at her job.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 26, 2019, 13:42:04 PM
The thing that concerned me about Amber was when she was Home Secretary she seemed to endorse all of May's cockups , and may no attempt to reverse them. Just felt a bit weak to me, unable to stand up to May.


But, she was obviously unable to cross Mrs May who would have sacked her. Clearly, she was put in the job as Home secretary to cover up for Mrs May and she had no choice about that.  Like I said, a few more years in high office will prepare her for a bigger role (if it happens).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 26, 2019, 13:44:05 PM
She is a sugare dancer too.

Definitely a quality any future PM obviously needs  ::)


Truly awful, and really that example just proved that she was truly lacking in basic human skills in a way that no normal politician could be because she was given an easy Conservative seat in Maidenhead.  Maidenhead would have elected a donkey if it had a blue rosette on it. Oops, maybe they really did ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on May 27, 2019, 18:32:34 PM
so Farage Has an election celebration, but, for what, if this waRolled out to a general election, would this mirror the Euro election. basically, all we have learned is that Clarity speaks wonders, and all the parties fudged the detail, so, we have a new leader of the Tory Party very soon, and what changes.... i am afraid very little, so, dont quote me,,,,,, i do not think we shall ever see an out deal even with Farage as a new Prime minister... JESUS. and of course i will be lambasted by others....but is this not the politics of the country is all about, everyone so polarised in their stance. hopefully there will never be an outcome and we stay put
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 27, 2019, 22:58:26 PM
If we make some assumptions regarding the outcome of the recent elections we see that the only party advocating Brexit, I.e The Brexit Party, actually polled less than all the other parties that fundamentally want to remain.
You also have to assume that everyone who wants to leave the EU voted for the Brexit party.
Based on that, more people now want to stay than leave!

And Dorian is correct, it changes nothing in Parliament. As does changing PM, even with one that can dance, not stoop and can talk with an Eton educated voice. FFS ::)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 28, 2019, 07:29:11 AM
If we make some assumptions regarding the outcome of the recent elections we see that the only party advocating Brexit, I.e The Brexit Party, actually polled less than all the other parties that fundamentally want to remain.
You also have to assume that everyone who wants to leave the EU voted for the Brexit party.
Based on that, more people now want to stay than leave!

And Dorian is correct, it changes nothing in Parliament. As does changing PM, even with one that can dance, not stoop and can talk with an Eton educated voice. FFS ::)
Not strictly true, the Tory vote would have contained leavers and remainers as would the Labour vote, and we should not forget UKIP, I do agree however that this latest vote for MEP places changes nothing, it simply reflects the original vote in the referendum and it does seem that opinions have not changed.
The Brexit Party seems a little confused in it's aims however, demanding a place on the negotiating team while stating that the UK leave the EU without a deal in October.
It is clear that a compromise will have to be found if we are to avoid the continueing split in British opinion which is proving to be very damaging, perhaps even more so than the damage predicted by remainers.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 28, 2019, 08:08:22 AM
Mike

I think Nigel has said several times he wants his group of MEPs to be included in the negotiating team that meets with Brussels-based EU officials to discuss a new deal.

Some of the candidates for the Tory leadership have mentioned ditching the existing botched, unpopular deal and renegotiating for a Canada ++ style (free trade) deal which is what the EU originally offered us but the Maybot rejected it because she wanted something that felt more of a compromise.

I suspect that the Tories will go for a Canada ++style  free trade deal because the EU is likely to co-operate and it could be done relatively quickly ... and, the Tories will tell Nigel to stay out of it ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 28, 2019, 08:58:05 AM
Big assumptions there Bob :). I assume you have taken in the nationalist parties in your calculations. I think for them the biggest driver for voters is their nationalist agenda and not their stance on Brexit, pretty much the same with the greens.

What I take from these results is.

1. Both Cons and Labour are being punished for their middle of the road stance.  Parties which have a strong stance either way have attracted votes.

2. The country is still divided equally as to remain and leave.

Where this leaves the main parties I have no idea. By taking a definite stance either way you straight away alienate half your base. This is why JC has been sitting on the fence. His traditional base want Brexit (so does he), but his new leftie friends in London want to remain. At some point he will need to decided which group to sacrifice.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 29, 2019, 09:43:57 AM
oh dear Alistair Campbell has been a naughty boy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48434842
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on May 29, 2019, 12:01:24 PM
oh dear Alistair Campbell has been a naughty boy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48434842
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/johnson-to-face-court-over-claims-he-lied-to-public-over-brexit/ar-AAC4QeC?ocid=spartandhp
It seems BOJOs in trouble as well.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 29, 2019, 12:57:48 PM
Anyone can crowd fund and launch a court action. Wait and see what the result is.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 29, 2019, 18:54:34 PM
We don’t need a court to tell us BoJo the clown is a lying Barsteward.
 Him, Gove, Fromage et al = lying bastar*s

Their lies persuaded enough gullible people to vote leave and for us to end up in the sugare.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 30, 2019, 08:20:57 AM
All politicians lie. This action is obviously politically motivated by a remainer who can't accept the result. Why not prosecute JC for lying about supporting the result of the referendum, or Nick Clegg for saying he wouldn't introduce tuition fees?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on May 30, 2019, 09:04:22 AM
Well, I would prefer BOJO to defend the action on the basis that the claim or statement was essentially true or was based on some sort of relevant fact. It seems he is concentrating at this stage on the legal procedures first so he is trying to get the case dismissed as not one that should go to court anyway.

I noticed that one point in the charge is that he was in a public office at the time - ie. Mayor of London.  I find this odd as he was in fact acting in a political campaign which had nothing to do with this office.

As a councillor (previously town and district and currently a unitary councillor), I've tangled with the exact same code of conduct systems which also apply to Mayors. I well remember BOJOs predecessor, Ken Livingstone, being suspended by the Adjudication Panel for England (which became part of the first tier of tribunals before it was dismantled in 2012) after hearing complaints that he had been antisemitic in public. Ken took his appeal to the High Court which immediately suspended his suspension and later decided that Ken was not actually on duty as Mayor when he abused a Jewish reporter.

This legal point of a public servant only being on duty when actually at work or at other events when undertaking his/her duties or writing stuff in their public role etc, means that an accusation of a breach of their responsibility to abide by a code of conduct does not apply when off duty or actually doing something else. The APE tribunal decision was overturned and the case was thrown out on the basis that Ken was not on duty as Mayor.

In particular, it is a well established point that the code of conduct does not apply when campaigning for political elections. The issue here I think is that BOJO was not a candidate himself. He was leading a political campaign as a national political figure ... which I expect he will argue did not mean he was actually acting as London Mayor but as BOJO, the national figure who also has been MP, Mayor, TV character, journalist, author etc etc ...

I fully expect this case to be dismissed on the basis that BOJO was not acting in his official public role (Mayor of London) at the time of leading the Leave campaign.

A lot will depend on whether he signed anything with the claims on as Mayor or used his Mayoral official notepaper.  It will not be sufficient that people simply say he was Mayor at the time. They need to show he was specifically acting in his role as Mayor and not mistakenly calling himself Mayor when he was not doing Mayor-type work etc ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 30, 2019, 09:30:57 AM
I predict this will be thrown out before it reaches a trial. More mud slinging by people who can not accept the result of a democratic process. We are in a dark time with regards to democracy, with a significant number of people unwilling to  accept results and resorting to underhand methods to try and impose their views.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 30, 2019, 10:30:32 AM
It probably will be thrown out on a technicality.

It doesn't alter the fact that he lied. We all know that!

If a referendum is won on the main leave group lying and getting illegally funded, surely the result should be void? What's the point in having rules otherwise?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on May 30, 2019, 10:59:18 AM
Maybe Theresa May should be prosecuted because she said we would leave on 31st March.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on May 30, 2019, 14:31:02 PM
Yup, prosecute her!!  To be fair, she never said which year though.

As you say they all lie, just some tell bigger lies with bigger consequences than others.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on May 30, 2019, 14:34:49 PM
Our country is split down the middle, whether in or out , i cannot see this getting anywhere, even the Forum cant decide,!! however a no deal is pretty damn worrying
Title: Change UK - Six MP's leave the party!
Post by: Shizzy on June 04, 2019, 17:11:34 PM
Well that seems to be the end of change UK, I didn't even realise they had 6 MP's!
 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 04, 2019, 17:55:18 PM

BBC Article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515505 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48515505)

Looks to me to be a sensible move by the more intelligent half, such as Chuka and Heidi Allen, to get some distance from the more bonkers half, such as Anna Soubry and perhaps to let some time slip by until they quietly - perhaps during the Summer recess - slip across to the LibDems for an easier life and to give their career more opportunities within an established anti-Brexit national party with proven election winning capabilities ...
Title: Re: Change UK - Six MP's leave the party!
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 05, 2019, 13:31:37 PM
Well that seems to be the end of change UK, I didn't even realise they had 6 MP's!

Change UK only ever had one policy (as did Brexit party) and as they didn't manage to get even one MEP there's no point continuing. As has been said before, if someone gets a seat in the house of commons standing for a particular party and then switches allegiance they should resign as an MP and force a by-election.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 07, 2019, 13:30:45 PM
As I predicted the attempt to prosecute Boris has been thrown out. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/07/boris-johnson-has-misconduct-allegations-quashed-high-court/
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 07, 2019, 18:49:06 PM
 [app] [app] [app]


 [beer]


 :laugh:
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 09, 2019, 11:29:58 AM
His pants are still on fire!  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 09, 2019, 12:48:40 PM
Along with every other politician. They all bend the truth, I always assumed most of the electorate were clever enough not to believe politicians and estate agents. The issue here was it was politically motivated and the appeal judges have seen it for what it was, an attempt to abuse the court process to overturn a democratic vote.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 09, 2019, 21:44:13 PM
You should never make assumptions.
It’s obvious a lot of the electorate still believe the lies. It’s only when you get older and more cynical you see the lies.

I was of course mocking BoJo when he repeatedly shouted liar liar pants on fire at Ken Livingston. A bit rich coming from such a big liar himself!

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on June 10, 2019, 10:32:47 AM
HOW ABOUT THIS
In cricket we have a different captain for the one day match to the captain for the five day test, why, different game plan.
Winston Churchill, great war time leader but with home affairs, not so good, SO WHY Not a dual leadership!! . a Boris type to push a brexit bit and a n other
for the running of the government !!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 10, 2019, 14:53:02 PM
But each cricket team is selected for each match and tends to change a bit from match to match, and the team manager is not the team captain.

In government, the team leader is PM and has just one chosen cabinet for dealing with all issues.

It's not a similar situation.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 10, 2019, 15:30:11 PM
But each cricket team is selected for each match and tends to change a bit from match to match, and the team manager is not the team captain.

In government, the team leader is PM and has just one chosen cabinet for dealing with all issues.

It's not a similar situation.

You're joking right?

The door to the cabinet office is a swing door. cabinet ministers come and go quicker than a whore's drawers go up and down!

They move from job to job faster than a benefit claimant and get sacked as regularly as a high street shop worker!

As for the leader....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 11, 2019, 14:01:58 PM
ooops Victoria Derbyshire drops a C bomb whilst talking about Jeremy Hunt. Freudian slip??   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYDlS3snIVo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on June 14, 2019, 07:42:12 AM
Well Chuka has joined the LibDems. No real surprise there.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on June 18, 2019, 20:19:45 PM
Here is a businessman who knows exactly what to say about nonsense claimed by remoaners:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZibEHDH8G4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZibEHDH8G4)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on June 19, 2019, 10:41:14 AM
Here is a businessman who knows exactly what to say about nonsense claimed by remoaners:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZibEHDH8G4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZibEHDH8G4)

He doesn't really know what he is talking about. His business doesn't do trade with any EU country so his views are entirely selfish.  Although his figures are accurate, they don't tell the whole story about SME's in the UK.

Here are the facts:

Small businesses accounted for 99.3% of all private sector businesses at the start of 2018 and 99.9% were small or medium-sized (SMEs).
Total employment in SMEs was 16.3 million; 60% of all private sector employment in the UK.
The combined annual turnover of SMEs was £2.0 trillion, 52% of all private sector turnover

In 2018 there were 1.4 million employing businesses and 4.3 million non-employing businesses. Therefore, 75% of businesses did not employ anyone aside from the owner(s).
The overall business population includes three main legal forms: there were 3.4 million sole proprietorships (59% of the total), 1.9 million companies (34%), and 405,000 ordinary partnerships (7%).
Of the 5.7 million businesses, 45% (2.6 million) were registered for VAT or PAYE


His claim that most SME's don't trade with the EU is unfounded. I suspect that if his business did trade with EU countries his attitude would be quite different.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on July 01, 2019, 22:19:34 PM
EU signs big trade deals as UK heads towards no-deal chaos


You couldn’t get a bigger a contrast between the opportunities of EU membership and the emptiness of Brexit: the EU has reached a historic trade agreement with key emerging markets in Latin America while Tory leadership contenders brag about their plans for a no-deal Brexit. The EU is building bigger economic opportunities for its citizens. Meanwhile Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt compete with absurd Brexit promises of 100-day plans, taskforces, borrowed Canadian prime ministers and bungs to farmers.

Last Friday, the EU finally achieved a trade deal that has been 20 years in the making. Political agreement has been reached with Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay to enable free trade between their South American trading bloc, Mercosur, and the EU.

The result will be a free-trade area covering 780 million people that will save EU exporters £3.6 billion a year in tariffs. This latest deal comes on top of the 15 trade agreements the EU already has with major economies like Canada, Japan and South Korea that have entered into force since 2014.

By contrast Brexit Britain hasn’t managed to reach an agreement with the EU that Parliament can accept, has rolled-over only eleven of the EU’s existing 40 trade agreements with 69 countries and we still can’t agree what kind of long-term trading relationship we should have with the EU. So much for “Global Britain” and that swashbuckling free trade agenda the Brexiters promised us.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on July 02, 2019, 15:19:30 PM

Last Friday, the EU finally achieved a trade deal that has been 20 years in the making. Political agreement has been reached with Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay to enable free trade between their South American trading bloc, Mercosur, and the EU.

The result will be a free-trade area covering 780 million people that will save EU exporters £3.6 billion a year in tariffs. This latest deal comes on top of the 15 trade agreements the EU already has with major economies like Canada, Japan and South Korea that have entered into force since 2014.

Not everyone thinks this is a good idea.
Environmental group Greenpeace said the deal was a “disaster for the environment on both sides of the Atlantic.”
It warned the agreement would lead to more destruction of the Amazon rainforest and attacks on indigenous peoples
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on July 02, 2019, 21:20:23 PM
EU trade deal with South America a risk to farms

The European Union’s trade deal with a bloc of South American countries could have a devastating impact on the environment and Ireland’s farming sector, the Green Party has said.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-trade-deal-with-south-america-a-risk-to-farms-xml5hjnwp
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 03, 2019, 08:32:42 AM
HaHaHa

Who would have thought that bunch of leftie, tree hugging, layabout hippies the Green Party would be used as a reference to criticise a world trade deal...  All in the name of trying to discredit the EU.
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 04, 2019, 16:12:18 PM
It's all slowly slowly coming to light.

Why has Boris suddenly decided to investigate the sugar tax if he becomes PM which seems likely? On the pretense that it is affecting the not so well off financially?

Here's the real reason why:

https://vip.politicsmeanspolitics.com/2019/07/03/daydream-belizers-brexit-big-sugar-and-the-bad-boys-from-belize/


Little known fact: The European Union is the largest beet producer in the world churning out 17 million metric tons per year. The Common Agricultural Policy has long been protectionist towards EU produced beet – even as it (often very reluctantly) reformed other areas. Cane sugar importers pay a tariff of €339 per ton and naturally they do not like it. Would you?

There are only two big players in the UK sugar industry.

British Sugar uses beet in its production process and EU (mostly British) suppliers and thus manufactures its commodity tariff free.

Tate and Lyle Sugars is a cane importer and is thus obliged to pay tariffs on imports. Unsurprisingly, the company has been opposed to British membership of the Union from the very start.

During decades of hostility to the EU/EEC, Tate and Lyle managed to make friends in some very high places and one in particular. Prior to becoming an MP Brexit Secretary David Davis worked for the company for 17 years and was actively engaged in lobbying against the then EEC tariff.

During the 2016 referendum Tate and Lyle Sugars was one of the few big companies to support Leave and this year sponsored the Brexit heavy Conservative Party Conference, a move branded ‘disgraceful’ by British farmers.



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on July 04, 2019, 17:38:17 PM
Nothing like a good conspiracy theory. Did you know the world is flat?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on July 05, 2019, 06:40:42 AM
Here you go Maxi Jaguar Land Rover to build new electric car in the UK protecting thousands of jobs. How would you spin this announcement to suit your agenda?

https://news.sky.com/story/jaguar-land-rover-to-build-new-electric-car-in-the-uk-protecting-thousands-of-jobs-11757066
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on July 05, 2019, 16:53:26 PM
The post-Brexit vote period has not been kind to the car industry, which is also facing challenges from falling sales in China and demand for diesel vehicles plunging. JLR has been one of the most outspoken manufacturers on Brexit. It announced cuts of 4,500 jobs from its West Midlands plant in January, following 1,500 losses in 2018. It has also warned that a no-deal Brexit could cost it up to £1.2 billion a year.
JLR has been put in a corner and has decided to gamble on the UK’s next prime minister not being reckless enough to plunge the country off an economic cliff. It is clearly uneasy about that gamble. For other manufacturers it might not make as much sense to take the risk, with more flexibility to move operations offshore. The uncertainty of Brexit has seen investment in the UK car industry fall by 47% since 2017 – and we are attracting just a fraction of the global investment in electric vehicles.

Brexiters are irresponsible to use their “despite Brexit” jibe to make out like the UK economy has gone swimmingly since 2016. Ultimately, it is thousands of people’s jobs that will be on the line if hardliners get the disastrous Brexit they want.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 05, 2019, 18:26:07 PM
Well, ultimately, it is MILLIONS of jobs that may gain from a pure, clean, WTO-terms BREXIT, not least because our fisherman will get back more control of our fishing grounds and there will be trade deals done quickly, that open up the USA market more than ever before --- especially for Car makers like JLR. The yanks love our premium quality cars.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 05, 2019, 21:50:06 PM
Just for you Baldy  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T8KSYTerzE

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 05, 2019, 23:59:42 PM
Well, here is the first record my brother and I plus a school-friend played at the first ever booking of what was then called Sounds like 247 Roadshow which soon after became Sounds Kool which later became Exodus Roadshow.

The year was 1978 and the venue was a large youth centre in the St Pauls area of Bristol.

The name of the record applies as much now to the UK as it did to us at the time... I did not retire as a mobile/club DJ until 1989.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mwGi8UhLHw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mwGi8UhLHw)

I am certain of this record being the first we played because we spent a day choosing it before the event. Not only that, but there was an unforgettably large attendance crowding out the venue as the youth centre manager had advertised the event as if we were the real 247 Roadshow ...   For our own safety, we had to be locked in the building at the end and we had to wait for the police to confirm it was safe to leave to go home ...

The school friend was Mark Kenyon. His name still often appears in the credits of the largest BBC live entertainment shows as the lighting director or lighting designer / contractor.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 06, 2019, 14:21:59 PM
there was an unforgettably large attendance crowding out the venue as the youth centre manager had advertised the event as if we were the real 247 Roadshow ... 


Nothing changes. Only this time it’s the Brexit party exaggerating to attract more followers.

Strange choice of record though baldy. Don’t ever remember it being a big hit here ever??
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 06, 2019, 17:30:56 PM
Well, it had been something of a dance chart hit earlier that year and The Jacksons overall were really big at the time for disco dancing, especially for girls who tended to start any dancing off before the boys ...

Another relevant point was that the membership of the youth centre was about 85% black and we knew they adored The Jacksons. 

Title: Britain could face €200bn EU bail-out bill – unless there is a clean Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 07, 2019, 13:57:07 PM
Today's Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)


"Britain could face paying more than €200bn to the European Union in the event of a eurozone bail-out unless the UK leaves under a managed clean Brexit, according to leading City and business figures.

The warning comes from the Brexit Coalition, a new grouping that represents 29 diverse pro-Brexit campaigning organisations, including the Alliance of British Entrepreneurs, Artists for Brexit and Farmers for Britain as well as Labour Leave and Green Leaves.

In a letter sent this week to Conservative Party constituency chairmen and senior Tory officials, the Brexit Coalition urges members to support a new prime minister who is “committed unequivocally” to backing a clean WTO-based Brexit, one which would avoid having to pay such massive contingent liabilities to the EU.

Daniel Hodson, coalition president and former Liffe boss, says that under existing rules the UK Government is obligated to a contribution of around €207bn (£186bn) to any bail-out should the eurozone tip into financial crisis.

“Given the current dire straits in which the eurozone finds itself, a financial crisis is an increasingly likely scenario,” he says.

The UK is liable for at least this amount – a figure which could grow to as much as €441bn or even more – if the Brexit process becomes so drawn out that it overlaps with the next EU Multiannual Financial Framework.

Mr Hodson, who is also chairman of The City for Britain, adds: “These liabilities have not been discussed deeply enough in the Brexit debate. To avoid the scenario in which the UK would have to rescue EU banks despite not being a member of the eurozone, the UK needs to leave the EU and cut its contractual ties as soon as possible.”

The letter also raises two other areas of national importance which the pro-Brexit campaigners claim have been ignored by the national media but need greater scrutiny: defence and the fishing industry.

With regard to the UK’s defence, the campaigners claim the country risks losing permanent control of key areas of decision making over its armed forces and defence strategy.

They claim that the current EU proposal, recently adopted by the Government, effectively brings the UK under the influence of the EU’s new “Defence Union”, which could have the affect of “immediately eroding democratic UK accountability over aspects of defence finance, procurement and foreign policy”. It also fears that even intelligence architecture and procurement could fall under EU influence.

The third area of concern should the UK stay closely aligned with the EU, and not opt for a clean departure, is the continued overfishing of the UK’s territorial waters and the disastrous impact on the Scottish fishing industry.

A managed exit would help the Scottish fishing industry, and doing so could help cement the union. The coalition also proposes a “Brexit Kitemark” to all sitting MPs and parliamentary candidates regardless of party based on their commitment to a managed Brexit."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on July 07, 2019, 19:48:42 PM
Blimey, that really is Project fear mark 3 on steroids!  [app]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 08, 2019, 07:23:34 AM
and rocket boosters ....  :) :laugh:
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on July 09, 2019, 17:32:19 PM
any possibility of keeping on topic.... without being chastised
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 09, 2019, 20:03:12 PM
It's clear that Jeremy Hunt is not totally committed to BREXIT by 31st October.

His new name should be:

Can Kicking Hunt

Say it carefully folks!


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on July 09, 2019, 20:05:25 PM
any possibility of keeping on topic.... without being chastised


See you next Tuesday
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on July 09, 2019, 22:11:08 PM
Costs Of Brexit See Attached
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on July 10, 2019, 11:59:43 AM
Do you have a source to back up the figures?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on July 10, 2019, 20:03:16 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-seventh-on-list-of-meps-outside-earnings (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/10/nigel-farage-seventh-on-list-of-meps-outside-earnings)

Nigel Farage has earned between £524,000 and £700,000 through TV and radio work in the last four years


https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2019/03/03/eu-membership-is-a-bargain/ (https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2019/03/03/eu-membership-is-a-bargain/)

Being a member of the EU costs us only around 34p a day each.

https://economia.icaew.com/news/april-2019/brexit-costs-uk-600m-a-week (https://economia.icaew.com/news/april-2019/brexit-costs-uk-600m-a-week)

Brexit costs UK £600m a week

That's 3 sources Just simply using google to back this up.
Title: No-deal Brexit could boost our economy by £80bn
Post by: baldy on July 17, 2019, 18:52:00 PM
Philip Hammond's negative view of no-deal Brexit is pure silliness: it could boost our economy by £80bn


Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/16/philip-hammonds-negative-view-no-deal-brexit-pure-silliness/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/16/philip-hammonds-negative-view-no-deal-brexit-pure-silliness/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Tory leadership race: Queen’s Speech ‘may be timed to prevent Brexit vote
Post by: baldy on July 17, 2019, 18:59:38 PM
Times:  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/conservative-leadership-race-queen-s-speech-may-be-timed-to-prevent-brexit-vote-7jst628pv?shareToken=b0d26c3387b99714a657b1d27aab6e10 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/conservative-leadership-race-queen-s-speech-may-be-timed-to-prevent-brexit-vote-7jst628pv?shareToken=b0d26c3387b99714a657b1d27aab6e10)
Title: May didn’t have the skill set to succeed as PM
Post by: baldy on July 19, 2019, 07:39:32 AM
Times:  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-didn-t-have-the-skill-set-to-deliver-brexit-lfb9h97zx?shareToken=66a32e5c32c1cff518b699ff662a9820 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-didn-t-have-the-skill-set-to-deliver-brexit-lfb9h97zx?shareToken=66a32e5c32c1cff518b699ff662a9820)
Title: There may well be an economic cost to no-deal – but plenty of people want it any
Post by: baldy on July 19, 2019, 09:26:01 AM
Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Dominic Cummings tells MPs: you've missed your chance to stop no-deal Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 03, 2019, 22:40:37 PM
Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/03/dominic-cummings-tells-mps-missed-chance-stop-no-deal-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/03/dominic-cummings-tells-mps-missed-chance-stop-no-deal-brexit/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)




Yay !
Title: Republican senators pledge to back Boris Johnson in US trade deal after Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 03, 2019, 23:10:54 PM
Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/republican-senators-pledge-to-back-boris-johnson-in-us-trade-deal-after-brexit-p8xxgsvmt?shareToken=4e8d5e93c8d1260cfaf0763368d74b85 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/republican-senators-pledge-to-back-boris-johnson-in-us-trade-deal-after-brexit-p8xxgsvmt?shareToken=4e8d5e93c8d1260cfaf0763368d74b85)
Title: Mark Carney warns of instant shock from no-deal Brexit
Post by: Maxi on August 04, 2019, 09:25:25 AM
Shock of no deal would be instant, says Mark Carney
A no-deal Brexit would result in an instant shock to the UK economy, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has warned.
Items such as petrol and food would become more expensive if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement, he said.
He predicted the value of the pound would fall in response to what he described as a "real economic shock".
"The change in trading relationship means that real incomes will be lower," he told the BBC's Today programme.
On Thursday, the Bank said the economy was expected to grow by 1.3% this year, lower than its earlier projection of 1.5%, if the UK leaves the EU with a deal.
It did not say what it expected to happen in the case of a no-deal Brexit.
But Mr Carney told the BBC there was a "significant possibility" that a deal would not be struck.
"The economics of no deal are that the rules of the game for exporting to Europe or importing from Europe fundamentally change," he said.
As a result, he said, "very big" and "highly profitable" industries in the UK would become "uneconomic".
Very difficult decisions will need to be taken," he said, explaining that those would have a "knock-on" effect on the economy.
He pointed to carmakers, food manufacturers and chemical firms as some of those that would be hardest hit.
"These are the sectors that have not been investing," he said.
"One of the reasons why the economy has slowed is that business investment has been very, very weak."
But Mr Carney said the Bank's response to a no-deal Brexit would not be automatic.

He explained the Bank would look at the effect on the economy of things such as car plant closures as well as a weakening pound before it decided how to respond.
"We will do everything we can in order to provide support to the economy," he said.
But he warned that a no-deal Brexit would be inflationary.
"Instantly, you have supply disruptions but you actually have businesses that are no longer economic."
Last month, the Office for Budget Responsibility warned that a no-deal Brexit would deal a £29.3bn blow to the UK economy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49203426 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49203426)



Title: Re: There may well be an economic cost to no-deal – but plenty of people want it any
Post by: baldy on August 04, 2019, 09:38:11 AM

Yes, but as I linked to before, plenty of folk want a no deal Brexit anyway for a range of reasons, including the fact that the problems will be dealt with and overcome via deals that do  expand the economy one way or another. It’s not just about total GDP in the short term. It’s a long term change ...


Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: So what does a No Deal Brexit really mean?
Post by: baldy on August 04, 2019, 10:20:10 AM
Mail Online: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7318477/So-does-No-Deal-Brexit-really-mean.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7318477/So-does-No-Deal-Brexit-really-mean.html)
Title: Nasty Ghastly Grieve talks B*ll*c£s again!
Post by: baldy on August 04, 2019, 13:00:58 PM

Brexit: Still time to block no-deal on 31 October, senior Tory rebel says


BBC:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49225906 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49225906)

Read the whole article as it explains why he is wrong. Boris would not resign, so Grieve's claim is false.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 05, 2019, 10:01:11 AM

Yes, but as I linked to before, plenty of folk want a no deal Brexit anyway for a range of reasons, including the fact that the problems will be dealt with and overcome via deals that do  expand the economy one way or another. It’s not just about total GDP in the short term. It’s a long term change ...


Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-economic-cost-no-deal-plenty-people-want-anyway/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)

It's the same old nonsense that if you say something often enough and loud enough you start to believe it's true.

Brexit ain't going to happen this year - unless a deal is struck that satisfies the majority in parliament. Which is unlikely. A no-deal exit is even more unlikely as there is far too much opposition to that (even if plenty of people do want it as Baldy claims).

Brexiteers were saying the same in March - "we have to leave the end of March." "It's the law!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 10:56:26 AM
Well, according to Boris and his chief adviser, we are leaving on 31st October and it's too late for parliamernt to stop a no deal BREXIT.  So, the only question left is whether BREXIT on 31st October will be with a "deal or no deal".

If Boris fails to Brexit by 31st October, he will be a laughing stock and the Conservative Party will be toast ... finished and banished from government for good .... so actually it makes sense that Boris is going to ensure we leave, with or without a deal on time ...

I think there will be a general election soon - either running up to 31st October or soon after - involving the Conservative Party and Brexit Party in a deal to capture Labour Leave seats for the Brexit Party and maybe even including Conservative Leave seats with a prominent Remoaner Conservative MP.

I think Boris is ruthless enough and has the correct strategic adviser to do this.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 05, 2019, 16:18:29 PM

If Boris fails to Brexit by 31st October, he will be a laughing stock


He makes me laugh now.  ;D :laugh:



I think there will be a general election soon - either running up to 31st October or soon after - involving the Conservative Party and Brexit Party in a deal to capture Labour Leave seats for the Brexit Party and maybe even including Conservative Leave seats with a prominent Remoaner Conservative MP.



Is that even legal? Sounds like election fixing to me. Even if it is legal, it's not really ethical but then we are talking politics. A conservative/brexit party coalition doesn't sound very attractive.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 05, 2019, 17:34:49 PM
this goes to show that with this Forum we are ardent followers of our own beliefs.
Baldy is so adamant that we can get it on... based upon what i ask. and also those who who say we are doomed are only reading an extracting the views that they then pit their spin upon it.
i am speaking ing as a farmer who heavily depends upon the subsidies to enable us to compete against lower cost of production growers across the EU

The the EU was the european market and we all benefited from this as long as we adhere to the regulations. i hope no one has to visit a european abattoir, to see the regulations being torn to threads, just to give us cheaper food
We are an island and cannot compete with the outside world when no one looks at cheap meat and the welfare standards that the meat came from.
Yes i am proud to be British, but not so naive to think we have all the answers.
so much cross country companies have benefited from our and theirs cross  techknowledgey,. we cannot let this go

instead of those who firmly believe in leave and those who dont , you will soon have to go one way or another and except it. SIO, Farage will say to Boris,.
" dont contest a safe labour seat, we will" and before you know it farage is the next PM....... Im sure Baldy, as he always does will come back at me, and rightly so but if this happens Armageddon is NOW!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on August 05, 2019, 17:44:49 PM
Tory donor bets £300 million on losses for UK firms after no-deal Brexit

Crispin Odey, the pro-Brexit Conservative donor, reportedly waged a £300m bet against some of Britain’s biggest businesses on the implication their share prices will crash after Brexit.

The multimillionaire hedge fund tycoon’s company, Odey Asset Management, is understood to have taken out £299m in “short” positions on at least 16 firms including Royal Mail and Intu, the shopping centre owner. 

Shorting involves borrowing currency or shares and selling immediately in the hope of buying them back later for less and pocketing the difference.

On 23 July, when Boris Johnson was elected Tory party leader, Mr Odey’s company reportedly increased its “short” position in the high street lender Metro Bank. It currently has a £17.6m bet against the lender, according to a report in the Sunday Times.
Mr Odey is said to have backed shares in UK firms, such as supermarket chain Tesco, to rise.

Ian Murray, the Labour MP who champions the People’s Vote campaign, said: “It’s a disgrace to democracy that Johnson is happy to take money from a man who is betting against the country and who stands to make a mint if he forces no deal on us.

“It might not be illegal, but it stinks.”

In June, the City grandee donated £10,000 to Mr Johnson’s leadership campaign.
He previously contributed more than £800,000 to pro-Brexit campaigns and £32,000 to UKip during Nigel Farage’s tenure.

The businessman, thought to be worth £750million, made a reported £220million in 2016 after betting that a leave result would trigger the pound to crash.

Hours after the referendum result, he told the BBC: “There’s that Italian expression – ‘Il mattino ha l’oro in bocca’ – the morning has gold in its mouth, and never has one felt so much that idea as this morning.”

Mr Odey did not respond to the newspaper’s claims.
https://inews.co.uk/news/tory-donor-bets-300-million-on-losses-for-uk-firms-after-no-deal-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR0IHnYMBE7u8St4PemxvzD9tK97peQsOjyO80kis0v6MkGj3cipLrGsUdk (https://inews.co.uk/news/tory-donor-bets-300-million-on-losses-for-uk-firms-after-no-deal-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR0IHnYMBE7u8St4PemxvzD9tK97peQsOjyO80kis0v6MkGj3cipLrGsUdk)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 18:26:09 PM
George Soros is famous for betting against Sterling just before the UK was forced to crash out of the ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism) which involved managing the value of £ sterling to follow the Euro within a narrow band. Soros used his huge hedge fund to spend Billions against sterling and, in effect, caused the UK to crash out of the ERM. The Bank of England wasted Billions on the whole exercise. 

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday)

Soros is feted as a sage and one of the most wealthy men in the world who advises Bill Gates on how to invest his spare Billions.

What this "Tory Donor" is doing is absolutely small fry stuff compared to what Soros did and still does ...

Shorting uses contracts to sell stuff at future moments in time at an agreed price when the "seller" has not yet bought the stuff. It is based on betting that the price will fall so that the sell contract can be honoured by buying the tradeable stuff later and at a lower price.  It involves huge risks that the price goes the other way.

It is not immoral or illegal. It is simply high stakes trading with huge sums of money and ultimately the other trader is responsible for agreeing to the trade of their stuff (shares, money, bonds etc) at the price agreed.

The fact that serious traders are now betting on a Brexit by 31 October tells us that serious people now believe it will happen ...    Watch for the EU to come asking for urgent talks with Boris to agree some new deal which will not be described as an amendment to the existing but rejected deal ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 18:37:39 PM
this goes to show that with this Forum we are ardent followers of our own beliefs.
Baldy is so adamant that we can get it on... based upon what i ask. and also those who who say we are doomed are only reading an extracting the views that they then pit their spin upon it.
i am speaking ing as a farmer who heavily depends upon the subsidies to enable us to compete against lower cost of production growers across the EU

The the EU was the european market and we all benefited from this as long as we adhere to the regulations. i hope no one has to visit a european abattoir, to see the regulations being torn to threads, just to give us cheaper food
We are an island and cannot compete with the outside world when no one looks at cheap meat and the welfare standards that the meat came from.
Yes i am proud to be British, but not so naive to think we have all the answers.
so much cross country companies have benefited from our and theirs cross  techknowledgey,. we cannot let this go

instead of those who firmly believe in leave and those who dont , you will soon have to go one way or another and except it. SIO, Farage will say to Boris,.
" dont contest a safe labour seat, we will" and before you know it farage is the next PM....... Im sure Baldy, as he always does will come back at me, and rightly so but if this happens Armageddon is NOW!!


It won't be Armageddon.  Farmers will have their losses covered via Government subsidies.   Right now I'm expecting lamb to possibly be available in the shops at about 10-25% of the normal price from November onwards and I'm wondering whether to buy a freezer just to store a years supply of my favourite meat.  Apparently, the country does not have enough cold stores to freeze all the lamb that may not be sold to the EU if we have no deal and so it would have to be sold by any means available or destroyed. I'm pretty sure it would be sold cheap and for the consumers delight (mine certainly).
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 05, 2019, 19:53:07 PM
You make me laugh louder than BoJo and the things he comes out with.
Even if the government subsidises the Farmers to that extent - which I doubt, you’re quite happy to profit from British farmers demise. Shame on you!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 20:04:57 PM
But, nothing I said was about our farmers' demise. It was about the Government continuing subsidies and throwing in extra subsidies where farmers cannot sell their goods to the EU due to the tariffs added if we Brexit without a deal.

You've misunderstood what I said.

Farmers will be fine.  They may end up selling to different countries or producing different products, but the government will subsidise the losses caused by tariffs imposed as a result of a no deal BREXIT.  The government has no choice but to do this or it will have all sorts of problems to handle that mean they absolutely must keep farming going .... and updating ...

It is worth remembering an important fact that arises from a no deal Brexit:

The UK has a huge trade deficit with the EU. They sell far more to us than we sell to them. So, if WTO tariffs are imposed due to a no deal Brexit, the UK government will be collecting masses more tariffs which can be used to pay for farming subsidies.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 05, 2019, 21:32:51 PM
There is no such thing as “WTO tariffs”: the WTO does not itself determine tariff rates, and it does not require member countries to charge tariffs on their imports.

Any tariffs applied to imports are paid by the importing company's, who pay that to the customs. You're saying the government will use that money to subsidise company's that export. Meanwhile the importing company's are out of pocket. Who's going to make that up? You and I as consumers will.

Simply put, goods imported from Europe if we leave with no deal will cost more to buy. You carry on with your deep freezer plan Baldy, only if your planning on buying one get it now because after end of October and we leave without a deal as you want, it's going to cost you more. Unless you buy a cheap Chinese one which will probably break down before Christmas and ruin your dinner.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 21:56:23 PM
You are getting bogged down in detail and not seeing the overall effect.  Overall, as a result of WTO trading with a no deal Brexit, the UK government will be collecting way more tariffs (via Customs) than before, so it will have more in the kitty to support businesses that need it.

We were talking about farmers, so the issue there was mainly about selling their produce into the EU with higher tariffs applied. This will have to be overcome with subsidies to the farmers ...

When talking about importers, if tarrifs are applied (in line with WTO terms), the UK government will be quids in. If UK consumers then buy less from other countries (EU or not), those countries will be keener to complete a trade deal with the UK.

No-one ever said that a no deal Brexit would be easy ....     Ahem ... I know someone said getting a deal would be easy but clearly that was assuming a competent PM and we all know how horribly wrong that assumption turned out to be as a result of TM being totally incapable of handling the issues. What we needed in a PM was good political intuition and commercial awareness not someone who incorrectly thought that being unable to communicate or dance or negotiate was a virtue and instead was just obstinate and talentless and useless ... and on a personal note ... just awfully ugly  as well ...
Title: Re: No-deal Brexit now expected from Boris Johnson ...
Post by: baldy on August 05, 2019, 23:06:13 PM

Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/05/no-deal-brexit-now-expected-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-sets/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/05/no-deal-brexit-now-expected-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-sets/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)



Brussels believes that Britain will leave the EU without a deal after accepting that Boris Johnson "isn’t bluffing", the Telegraph understands.

EU leaders are now working on "a working hypothesis of no deal" following a meeting on Monday between Commission officials and Brexit diplomats from each of the 27 EU countries, amid mounting speculation Mr Johnson will call a general election after October 31.

It comes as all government departments in Whitehall were given a 48-hour deadline to prove their readiness for no deal. The EU-27 is understood to be shaken by reports that Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson’s chief strategist, has said it is too late for MPs to prevent a no deal exit on Halloween.

EU officials had been confident that Mr Johnson would not force Britain out without a deal but meetings with his senior adviser David Frost last week have changed their minds along with newspaper articles including a confrontational opinion piece written by Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay.

"Our working hypothesis is now no deal," said an EU source after the meeting, where diplomats agreed they could not rely on MPs to prevent a disorderly withdrawal.

 Brussels has been shaken by Dominic Cummings' insistence that there is nothing MPs can do to stop no deal

“It was clear UK does not have another plan,” a senior EU diplomat said of the meetings with Mr Frost. “No intention to negotiate, which would require a plan. A no deal now appears to be the UK government’s central scenario"

Mr Johnson is yet to meet any EU leaders or officials in person, which has surprised Brussels and added to the conviction Mr Johnson is not prepared to compromise.

On Monday, Mr Cummings allegedly threatened Downing Street staff with the sack if they try to block no deal during a blistering attack on Remainer former cabinet ministers who he accused of ‘frustrating’ Brexit during their time in office.

The former Vote Leave boss “absolutely tore into” former chancellor Philip Hammond and Greg Clark, the former business secretary, during the 7.55am meeting at Number 10, when he called on SpAds to detail the status of every government department’s no deal planning by Wednesday morning.

“He basically said that Hammond and Clark had not only failed to prepare for no deal but actively blocked it,” said an insider. He said: ‘I know what’s happened is not your fault - it’s Hammond and Clark’s fault. He absolutely tore into them.

“But then he said: ‘If you don’t flag problems now and they blow up in the next two weeks then it will be your fault. He said he wanted a note from all government departments in the next 48 hours detailing what they had done to prepare for no deal and what more needed to be done.”

A source close to Mr Cummings confirmed he had said Mr Hammond and Mr Clark “did not want the country to be ready for no deal for political purposes” and “neglected all sorts of things.”

EU officials are now viewing the October EU summit in Brussels as the "no deal Brexit summit", whereas before they had expected EU-27 leaders to mull over another British request to extend the Article 50 deadline.

It comes as Mr Frost, known as Mr Johnson’s EU sherpa, reportedly told the EU that Britain planned to negotiate a free trade agreement with Brussels after a no deal Brexit.

Brussels is still expected to ask for a backstop style solution for the Irish border and payment of the £39 billion pound Brexit bill as a condition for opening trade talks after no deal.

Diplomats are now waiting to hear what Mr Johnson tells EU leaders when he meets them in the margins of the G7 meeting in France later this month but there is no expectation that will change the situation.

Before the meeting in Brussels, the European Commission insisted that it would not be to blame if there was a no deal Brexit. A spokeswoman said that no deal would hurt both the UK and the EU, with a “serious economic impact” on Britain “proportionally higher” than in Europe. 

In March the EU said it had completed its no deal Brexit plans - a package of 46 measures are designed to mitigate the worst impact, including the loss of British payments into the EU budget and compensate EU fisherman for Brexit-related losses.

The measures cover the financial sector, transport and travel, customs and the export of goods, climate policy, agriculture and fisheries, social security coordination, and international trade.

“For a negotiation to be successful it takes two to tango,” the spokeswoman added. “If the music and the rhythm is not right then well then you have no dance but that doesn’t mean that it was a failure.” The spokeswoman said the EU was sticking to its red line that it would not renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement.  Mr Johnson insists that it must be renegotiated and the Irish backstop removed.

The Prime Minister’s spokesman reiterated that removing the “undemocratic” backstop from would represent “significant progress”, suggesting that the government could be tempted to bring the Brexit deal back to the Commons if the major concession was made.

But he added that Britain will be leaving the EU on October 31 "whatever the circumstances".

As reported in the Sunday Telegraph, Mr Cummings has told ministers that even if the Government lost a vote of confidence when Parliament returns in September Mr Johnson could remain in power by delaying an election until after October 31 by which time, under current legislation, Britain would be out of the EU.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said he agreed with Mr Cummings, who is reportedly preparing for a "people versus the politicians" poll if MPs again seek to frustrate the 2016 referendum result.

The Tory rebels’ numbers have been potentially boosted by the so-called ‘Gaukeward squad’ of former cabinet Remainers, including former justice secretary David Gauke, Mr Hammond and Mr Clark.

An ally of Mr Hammond said Mr Cummings’ claim about him blocking Brexit was “not a fair accusation”.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 06, 2019, 10:23:08 AM


You are getting bogged down in detail and not seeing the overall effect.  Overall, as a result of WTO trading with a no deal Brexit, the UK government will be collecting way more tariffs (via Customs) than before, so it will have more in the kitty to support businesses that need it.




It's the detail that affects daily life. It's important!

Yes, the UK government will be collecting way more tariffs (via customs) but that money will be coming from UK importing company's. It will be money that's already in the UK. The importing company's will pass that cost onto the consumers. Equals higher prices on the high street.

The exporters (farmers for example) will probably export less because their product will cost more to the country that is importing it (due to tariffs) so the demand will drop. Farmers will need subsidising or they will go out of business. (but hey, you can buy up all the spare lamb)

There are only losers with a no deal Brexit.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 06, 2019, 13:28:22 PM
subsidies are due to be overhauled in 2022, the subsidy to be replaced for farmers who protect our wild flowers and wildlife etc. strange that all the money that will support farmers will go on pretty flowers etc, when maybe, just maybe, shoppers find themselves paying top drawer money for their food. Post war 75% of salary went to groceries, today 22%

yes farmers are very subsidised and the old format , "never seen a poor Farmer is no longer" Land owners as oppose dto tenant farmers are governed by weather patterns and currency along with cheap imports where the well being of livestock is much to be desired,
everyone in the livestock and arable sector are sh...i thesleves, but as well all know..... we look after our own dont we, and bugger everyone else
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 06, 2019, 16:27:07 PM
subsidies are due to be overhauled in 2022, the subsidy to be replaced for farmers who protect our wild flowers and wildlife etc. strange that all the money that will support farmers will go on pretty flowers etc,

DORIAN, without wild flowers and wildlife you wouldn't be able to grow any crops. You know that as well as anyone I would hope?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 07, 2019, 07:48:31 AM
yes agreed we need diversification and Bees for Pollination, but not all foods depend upon this process
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 07, 2019, 17:37:43 PM
the need for Bees in oil seed rape is essential, but the staple diet of the world is wheat, that needs winds  to pollinate to produce wheat for Bread, Cereals, Biscuits, etc
we have been banned from ill informed politicians that Neonicotinoids have killed the bee numbers, they forget the hard winter that killed the bees and as a result of do gooders, the chemical that controlled the FLEA BEETLE  that destroyed the crop has now meant that Bee Farmers are crying that they do not have enough OSR to supply thir honey yields... Funny old World.
Takes 5 million pound to get chemicals through registration, wonder if people know that!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 08, 2019, 08:48:09 AM
Yes, there's always a problem for every solution.

Neonicotinoids have been banned because it killed bees. Perhaps it is now time to look at alternatives such as growing plants along aside OSR that attracts the flea beetles away from it.

It's always going to be a battle to get it right.

And...getting back on topic-ish. That's something that having a CAP can eventually solve. Another reason why a no deal Brexit would be wrong!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 08, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
actually slightly off topic, neonics do not kill bees, we have using nenics for years, and the minority voice who preach fear have had it banned, the next thing will be the Ban of Roundup, the active Glyphosate is mixed with the Tallow  Amine . one person in the states gets an illness due to Roundup, and the world goes into project fear.
we use, you an i, every day, Tallow Amine, in our soaps, shower gel, shampoo ets, but in such minute proportions you would have to drink q swimming pool full of the stuff,
yes we using companion crops for OSR in trying to fool the Flea Beetle to eat the companion crop , so you partially correct
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 08, 2019, 13:18:34 PM
Yes, It's like climate change. so called experts can be called in to say that it's man made and others deny it is.

Best case, or worst case depending on your viewpoint is that neonicotinoids slowly kill bees or reduce their colonies ability to survive winter.

I remember 'roseclear' being banned because a woman breathed it in and made herself ill when it clearly says spray down wind on the bottle!! Now I can't easily get rid of my aphids!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Al on August 11, 2019, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: baldy link=topic=4888.msg55949#msg55949
not least because our fisherman will get back more control of our fishing grounds
britain has 16 fishery patrol boats. The waters are what, 3 times the size of the landmass. Good luck with controlling that!
Title: UK faces food, fuel and drugs shortages in no-deal Brexit - report
Post by: Maxi on August 18, 2019, 10:32:32 AM
Is this what you voted for Brexiteers

Not Project Fear this time but reality.

Leaked Cabinet Office papers give "the most comprehensive assessment of the UK's readiness for a no-deal", says the Sunday Times.
A no-deal Brexit could lead to shortages of food, fuel and medicine, as well as a hard border on the island of Ireland, according to leaked official government documents published in the Sunday Times.
The newspaper said the forecasts compiled by the Cabinet Office under the codename Operation Yellowhammer set out the most likely aftershocks of a no-deal Brexit rather than the worst case scenarios.
It comes ahead of Prime Minister Boris Johnson's first EU trip this week during which he will demand a new withdrawal agreement and warn how serious he is about pursuing a no-deal Brexit if he does not get one.
The dossier shows that 85% of lorries using the main channel crossings "may not be ready" for French customs, meaning disruption at ports would potentially last up to three months before the flow of traffic improves, the Times said.
The government also believes a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will be likely as current plans to avoid widespread checks will prove unsustainable.
The Times said: "The dossier offers a rare glimpse into the covert planning being carried out by the government to avert a catastrophic collapse in the nation's infrastructure.
"The file, marked 'official-sensitive' requiring security clearance on a 'need to know' basis is remarkable because it gives the most comprehensive assessment of the UK's readiness for a no-deal Brexit."

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-faces-food-fuel-and-drugs-shortages-in-no-deal-brexit-report-11788081 (https://news.sky.com/story/uk-faces-food-fuel-and-drugs-shortages-in-no-deal-brexit-report-11788081)

Title: Brexit: No-deal dossier shows worst-case scenario - Gove
Post by: baldy on August 18, 2019, 20:48:29 PM
BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49388402 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49388402)



The contempt for remoaners who constantly stir fear about Brexit is growing so much that there is going to be some sort of civil unrest including shootings of more MPs ....   I'm in no doubt about it.

The remoaners who are trying to undermine no-deal planning are actually making it more likely that there will be no deal when we leave the EU on 31st October because the EU leaders think the remoaners will somehow stop Brexit or at least a no-deal Brexit.

I'm coming around to the idea that some remoaner MPs need to be rounded up and interned for their own safety (and to shut them up until November at least  - ahem).  ;)   ;D
Title: Re: Brexit: No-deal dossier shows worst-case scenario - Gove
Post by: wanderlust on August 19, 2019, 08:17:32 AM
 
BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49388402 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49388402)



The contempt for remoaners who constantly stir fear about Brexit is growing so much that there is going to be some sort of civil unrest including shootings of more MPs ....   I'm in no doubt about it.

The remoaners who are trying to undermine no-deal planning are actually making it more likely that there will be no deal when we leave the EU on 31st October because the EU leaders think the remoaners will somehow stop Brexit or at least a no-deal Brexit.


I'm coming around to the idea that some remoaner MPs need to be rounded up and interned for their own safety (and to shut them up until November at least  - ahem).  ;)   ;D

 [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app] [app]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 19, 2019, 10:11:03 AM
In true NAZI style!

Why not just stick your fingers in your ears and shout " I can't hear you"

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 19, 2019, 14:44:07 PM
But, the problem is that the EU leaders can hear the remoaners and so they will hold out for no deal assuming Boris will bottle it or will be removed somehow from the decision.

The remainiac MPs are playing a very dangerous game.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on August 19, 2019, 16:14:39 PM
Sounds like you don't really want a no deal Brexit to me.

I would have thought that that scenario was what you would want with BoJo not bottling it and the Uk diving head first off the cliffs of Dover.

I think Brexiteers are also hearing the remoaners - and listening!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 19, 2019, 17:00:20 PM
amazing is it not ,that the rhetoric from those who want out is as vitriolic who  those want to stay in, so what in hells chance of OUR representatives in parliament got a chance in hell of supplying. Me personally, looking at food production, am very concerned of the welfare of our fellow islanders!!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on August 20, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Why's that Dorian? Are you suggesting that when we leave the EU there will be zero trade with the rest of the world, and we must be self sufficient?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 20, 2019, 10:54:09 AM
Due to currency fluctuations we are not competitive in the world market as our cost of production is so much higher than other european countries
we are seeing more and more agrochemicals that assist growing of crops being banned, again pushing up prices
british housewives and house husbands should get to use to seeing higher food prices,
India subsidises agriculture more than it spends on defence. we are having our subsidies cut , to grow wild flowers and for diversification as well as wind Turbines and solar panels neither that create food.
Title: Top chef denied permanent UK stay' despite living here for 31 yrs
Post by: Maxi on August 25, 2019, 00:06:54 AM
Here Is Brexit in Action

A top chef who has lived in the UK for 31 years and has three British children says he has been denied the right to stay permanently after Brexit.
Richard Bertinet, who owns a cooking school and bakery in Bath and has written several award-winning cookbooks, described the government's settlement scheme to allow EU citizens to stay in the UK "shambolic".
He was only granted pre-settled status, which means he will need to apply again for the right to remain in the UK in five years - though the Home Office has told Sky News it will work with Mr Bertinet to ensure he does not have to do so.
His comments follow a public outcry after Polish chef Damian Wawrzyniak, who has cooked for the Royal Family and at the London Olympics, said he was not given permanent settled status despite living in the UK for 15 years.
Mr Bertinet says he has lived in the UK for three decades without any breaks - apart from a few weeks of holidays - and that he has a British wife and three British children.
Pre-settled status is usually given to those who have lived in the UK for less than five years.
Those granted settled status can stay in the UK as long as they like and can apply for British citizenship if eligible - but those in Mr Bertinet's and Mr Wawrzyniak's positions will need to apply again.
Mr Bertinet said he had "submitted all evidence requested" but it was still "not good enough for settled status".
He told Sky News it was "embarrassing" to apply for the settlement scheme after living in the UK for nearly all of his life.
"To prove that I've been here for 31 years - goodness me, they can track everything I've done for 31 years. I shouldn't have to prove that," he said.
He was defended by TV chef Nigella Lawson, who said the decision was "idiotic and wrong, and so hurtful".
But Mr Bertinet said his main concern was people getting "caught out" by not applying to the scheme.
MPs and think tanks previously warned the EU settlement scheme, which requires an estimated 3.5 million EU citizens to register, could become the next Windrush scandal.
A report found "large numbers" of EU nationals living in the UK could be left in limbo or ruled to be in the country illegally.
Former home secretary Sajid Javid had said the system would be "simple and straightforward" and added: "We will be looking to grant, not for reasons to refuse."
Figures released this week show that of the 800,000 applications dealt with by 30 June, 65% were granted full status and 35% were granted pre-settled status.
Mr Wawrzyniak, who has cooked for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, told his 17,000 Twitter followers: "Have lived in the UK for 15 years.
"Always employed, without gaps, now running own restaurant. Paid thousands of pounds in taxes."
He later said the deputy chief of European casework at the Home Office had contacted him to help reassess his application.
Labour MP David Lammy tweeted: "It's hugely worrying when one of our top chefs who has cooked for the queen, paid his taxes, and employed many in his restaurants is denied settled status in the UK because he is originally Polish."
EU citizens will have to apply via the settlement scheme to continue living in the UK after 30 June 2021, as part of post-Brexit plans.

https://news.sky.com/story/top-chef-richard-bertinet-denied-permanent-uk-stay-despite-living-here-for-31-years-11792808 (https://news.sky.com/story/top-chef-richard-bertinet-denied-permanent-uk-stay-despite-living-here-for-31-years-11792808)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on August 25, 2019, 20:17:36 PM
Probably more to this story. I have two brother-in-laws, one an EU national living in the UK, one a UK national living in Germany.

The one living in the UK applied online and within 3 days got his permission to remain indefinitely with zero problems, and zero cost.

Conversely the brother in law who has lived in Germany for 30 years, married to a German, has two kids, worked for the entire 30yrs and even gained German educational qualifications are making him undertake a German language test, which will cost him 200 Euros.
Title: Government asks Queen to suspend Parliament
Post by: baldy on August 28, 2019, 11:04:54 AM
BBC:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49493632)




Thank God, we now have a proper leader in control of the Government!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on August 28, 2019, 12:03:07 PM
[quoteThank God, we now have a proper leader in control of the Government![/quote]

I am appalled! When a government seeks to close parliament just because it can't get its way that is one step towards totalitarianism and not what I expect from a British government.  The government in the UK rule with the permission of parliament, the Prime Minister is appointed by parliament not by a political party or even a small cabal within a party. For a Prime Minister to suspend parliament just because he finds it fustrating is not democracy.  In a democracy you are allowed to oppose government policy including Brexit.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on August 28, 2019, 15:47:05 PM
The remainers have been outmaneuvered. I find it amusing that they have been open about using any means to thwart a democratic vote, but are unhappy when the opposition do the same.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on August 28, 2019, 17:48:13 PM
Again I disagree, remainers are using the same tactics that eurosceptics used to use.  What is different this time is the direct assault on democracy by attempting to shut parliament at a critical time. Do you really believe that if there was any true support for no deal that parliament would seek to prevent it?  What I object to most of all is the claim that to oppose Brexit is somehow undemoccatic

"There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it… Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave… The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly.” Vote Leave. It certainly looks as if our trade will suffer now as we wont have access to the single market or EFTA.

After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” – Boris Johnson (technically correct after the vote no disruption to the economy, but the brexiteers are now not making that claim once we actually leave)

“It will be possible to negotiate a new settlement with the EU, including a UK-EU free trade deal, by the next general election in May 2020” – Vote Leave
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on August 28, 2019, 18:23:30 PM
[url]https://youtu.be/bjghJ6Dy6Do[url]

Jonathan Pie to lighten the mode   :)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on August 28, 2019, 19:37:18 PM
https://youtu.be/bjghJ6Dy6Do (https://youtu.be/bjghJ6Dy6Do)


Totally true fake news
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on August 29, 2019, 09:27:14 AM
Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on August 29, 2019, 10:13:34 AM
Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.

You've answered your own question there Shizzy, they want to remain, and they've made it quite clear they will do everything they can to make it happen. They moan about Boris subverting democracy by Proroguing Parliament, but they are more than happy to undermine democracy when it suits them.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on August 29, 2019, 15:25:20 PM
Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.



Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.

You've answered your own question there Shizzy, they want to remain, and they've made it quite clear they will do everything they can to make it happen. They moan about Boris subverting democracy by Proroguing Parliament, but they are more than happy to undermine democracy when it suits them.

If it had been only remain MPs who had voted down the negotiated deal then I could agree with you but given that it was the Brexiteers themselves who repeated voted against, I suggest you may need to widen your criticism. I also repeat that opposing something you disagree with is absolutely democratic, silencing critics by shutting parliament isn't.

The biggest problem is that article 50 was triggered before we as a country knew what we wanted from brexit other than to leave the EU, in other words what does the end goal look like? If membership of EFTA (Norway type arrangement) was the end state then I suspect that as was promised in the campaign could have been achieved with a lot less pain and division.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on August 29, 2019, 17:09:34 PM
Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.



Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.

You've answered your own question there Shizzy, they want to remain, and they've made it quite clear they will do everything they can to make it happen. They moan about Boris subverting democracy by Proroguing Parliament, but they are more than happy to undermine democracy when it suits them.

If it had been only remain MPs who had voted down the negotiated deal then I could agree with you but given that it was the Brexiteers themselves who repeated voted against, I suggest you may need to widen your criticism. I also repeat that opposing something you disagree with is absolutely democratic, silencing critics by shutting parliament isn't.

The biggest problem is that article 50 was triggered before we as a country knew what we wanted from brexit other than to leave the EU, in other words what does the end goal look like? If membership of EFTA (Norway type arrangement) was the end state then I suspect that as was promised in the campaign could have been achieved with a lot less pain and division.

I wasn't talking about the voting down of the deal, which I happen to agree with because it was a really bad deal. I'm talking about this proposed vote of no confidence, If the remain MPs win that, they will install a puppet (unelected) Prime Minister who will revoke article 50.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on August 29, 2019, 17:27:39 PM
Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.



Maybe a strong supporter of remain can help answer this question.

We have heard much from strongly remain MP's about what they don't want. They have voted down the deal which was negotiated with the EU, and they don't want a no deal situation. The EU will not negotiate so what exactly do these MP's want? They don't want the deal on the table and they don't want 'no deal'.

You've answered your own question there Shizzy, they want to remain, and they've made it quite clear they will do everything they can to make it happen. They moan about Boris subverting democracy by Proroguing Parliament, but they are more than happy to undermine democracy when it suits them.

If it had been only remain MPs who had voted down the negotiated deal then I could agree with you but given that it was the Brexiteers themselves who repeated voted against, I suggest you may need to widen your criticism. I also repeat that opposing something you disagree with is absolutely democratic, silencing critics by shutting parliament isn't.

The biggest problem is that article 50 was triggered before we as a country knew what we wanted from brexit other than to leave the EU, in other words what does the end goal look like? If membership of EFTA (Norway type arrangement) was the end state then I suspect that as was promised in the campaign could have been achieved with a lot less pain and division.

I wasn't talking about the voting down of the deal, which I happen to agree with because it was a really bad deal. I'm talking about this proposed vote of no confidence, If the remain MPs win that, they will install a puppet (unelected) Prime Minister who will revoke article 50.

How is that any different from the position now?  We have an unelected PM now.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on August 30, 2019, 08:09:15 AM
We always have an unelected PM. We don't vote for PM's in this country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on August 30, 2019, 16:57:48 PM
whatever fence you sit on, we are the laughing stock of Europe, the  government that we elected are a joke, as an ardent remainer,(but accepting the result)
i am fed up to the death with all this stuff, maybe one should renind ourselves that the UK were with allies that saved europs from the hitler invasion, and all that went with that
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 05, 2019, 11:14:35 AM
Looks like everyone is sick of it all ...  :o
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on September 05, 2019, 12:52:33 PM
not often i agree with you but totally in agreement, I wonder what Brenda from Bristol is thinking >:(
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 06, 2019, 15:48:14 PM
A sad indictment of our democracy. I doubt any government will hold a referendum for generations to come. I'm surprised Jimmy Crankie keeps banging on about holding another one, can't she see the same issues being raised in Scotland?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 06, 2019, 19:33:23 PM
JFC Ad
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 11, 2019, 20:20:28 PM
Looks like everyone is sick of it all ...  :o

Maybe, but I’m just watching BoJo slowly hang himself and ruin the Conservative party.

Corbin is doing the same to the Labour Party.

RIP British democracy courtesy of Cameron and his fecking referendum.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 12, 2019, 08:47:43 AM


RIP British democracy courtesy of Cameron and his fecking referendum.

Whilst he swans off earning money with that smug look on his face.
Title: The no-deal documents that the government didn't want to release
Post by: Maxi on September 12, 2019, 09:03:55 AM
The Yellowhammer plan warns of riots and food price rises, the public did not vote leave for this to happen

The government has released documents relating to its "Operation Yellowhammer" preparations for a no-deal Brexit.
Having been ordered to reveal the details by MPs, the five pages published on the government website warn of a rise in public disorder, delays lasting three months at Channel crossings, "significant" electricity price rises and impacts on medicine and food supplies.
The documents have been released after opposition MPs defeated the government in the House of Commons on Monday to order their publication.
The worst disruption at Channel crossings might last for up to three months before improving
Lorries could face maximum delays of two-and-a-half days before being able to cross the UK border
Possible immigration delays for UK holidaymakers at the Channel Tunnel, ferry crossings and airports
A likelihood of "significant" electricity price rises in Northern Ireland
Medicine supplies will be "particularly vulnerable to severe extended delays"
A potential reduction in the UK's ability to prevent animal disease outbreaks due to reduced supplies of veterinary medicines
Supplies of some fresh food will decrease, while supermarket prices may also rise
Panic buying could increase food supply problems
The possibility of urgent action to ensure access to clean water if there is a failure in the supply of chemicals - although the likelihood of this is considered "low"
Disruption in law enforcement data sharing between the UK and EU
Concerns that Gibraltar has not prepared well enough for a no-deal Brexit
"Significant amounts" of police time being taken up by protests and a possible rise in public disorder
The risk of disruption to fuel supplies in the South East of England
Possible clashes between UK and EU fishing vessels
UK efforts to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are "likely to prove unsustainable"
The document also warns the readiness for a no-deal Brexit among the public and businesses will "remain at a low level and will decrease to lower levels" due to uncertainty over the nature of the UK's exit from the EU.
This readiness will be "further limited" by what the document describes as "increasing EU exit fatigue".
The timing of a possible no-deal Brexit on 31 October also coincides with seasonal risks such as severe weather, flooding and flu outbreaks.
This could exacerbate a number of impacts of a no-deal Brexit and stretch resources, the document adds.
The end of the UK growing season and preparations for Christmas could also increase pressure on food supplies.
One paragraph of the document has been redacted due to "commercial sensitivity", the government said.
Labour shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer said the documents "confirm the severe risks of a no-deal Brexit".
He added: "It is completely irresponsible for the government to have tried to ignore these stark warnings and prevent the public from seeing the evidence.
"Boris Johnson must now admit that he has been dishonest with the British people about the consequence of a no-deal Brexit.
"It is also now more important than ever that parliament is recalled and has the opportunity to scrutinise these documents and take all steps necessary to stop no-deal."
Former justice secretary David Gauke, who served in Theresa May's government, said: "If anyone wondered why so many ministers in the last government are strongly opposed to a no-deal Brexit, read the Yellowhammer documents.
"But the problems with no deal don't end with the short-term disruption. It's in the long-term when the real damage will be done."
His fellow former Conservative minister Phillip Lee, who is now a Liberal Democrat MP, described the Operation Yellowhammer details as "remarkable" and "explosive".
He also questioned whether it was the full document, telling Sky News: "There's obviously more to see.
"If you look at the details of this document, it is shocking.
"Really, did people vote in 2016 to have problems accessing clean water? Did they vote to have problems accessing necessary emergency medicines?
"Did they vote to have to have problems with access to fresh food? Of course they didn't."
From the last 30 years of British political history, any one of the potential outcomes outlined in the document would be a national emergency and a crisis on an epic scale.
In 2001 we saw a lorry strike cause restricted access to fuel at the petrol pumps, and Tony Blair decided to delay a general election until it was sorted.
That's the sort of consequence that you might see if there is a no-deal Brexit because of disruption at the border.
This five-page document outlines lots and lots of those challenges.
These stark warnings tonight from officials from Theresa May's government in August suggest that the checklist of things the government would need to sort out is enormous.

https://news.sky.com/story/operation-yellowhammer-government-no-deal-brexit-documents-released-11807339 (https://news.sky.com/story/operation-yellowhammer-government-no-deal-brexit-documents-released-11807339)




Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 12, 2019, 15:59:49 PM
Pity that wasn’t posted on the side of a big red bus! The vote would have been a bit different.




Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 12, 2019, 16:32:45 PM
Once again, remoaners are trying to misinterpret an internal government report on no-deal Brexit preparations, which looks at a reasonable worse case scenraio, by suggesting that the worst case problems that might occur if no further preparations are made will actually occur as if no preparations are being made.

This is plainly dishonest and is shamlessly misleading.

Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels.

This is exactly what the government is actually doing.

It is a lie to say that the problems envisaged will actually happen.  They might happen if no further preparations are made.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 12, 2019, 17:38:37 PM
Once again, remoaners are trying to misinterpret an internal government report on no-deal Brexit preparations, which looks at a reasonable worse case scenraio, by suggesting that the worst case problems that might occur if no further preparations are made will actually occur as if no preparations are being made.

This is plainly dishonest and is shamlessly misleading.

Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels.

This is exactly what the government is actually doing.

It is a lie to say that the problems envisaged will actually happen.  They might happen if no further preparations are made.

I'll bite.

In an assessment of risk, any identified risk must have an event and a probability of it happening.  You then have two initial possible outcomes, one where it doesn't occur and a second where it does happen. You assess the probability of it happening and impact to determine your mitigation action.  This report does not, as you suggest state that this outcome will occur if no action is taken but rather this is the worst outcome despite the mitigation. Unfortunately the worst come has been redacted.

Now the probabilty has not been published or the supporting data and to be frank I wouldn't expect them too. The Op YELLOWHAMMER report is in effect just the exec summary.

What the report does say is that these are the possible outcomes despite the mitigation plans.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 12, 2019, 17:52:27 PM


Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels.





You mean like actually striking a deal??
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 12, 2019, 19:46:39 PM
Once again, remoaners are trying to misinterpret an internal government report on no-deal Brexit preparations, which looks at a reasonable worse case scenraio, by suggesting that the worst case problems that might occur if no further preparations are made will actually occur as if no preparations are being made.

This is plainly dishonest and is shamlessly misleading.

Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels.

This is exactly what the government is actually doing.

It is a lie to say that the problems envisaged will actually happen.  They might happen if no further preparations are made.

I'll bite.

In an assessment of risk, any identified risk must have an event and a probability of it happening.  You then have two initial possible outcomes, one where it doesn't occur and a second where it does happen. You assess the probability of it happening and impact to determine your mitigation action.  This report does not, as you suggest state that this outcome will occur if no action is taken but rather this is the worst outcome despite the mitigation. Unfortunately the worst come has been redacted.

Now the probabilty has not been published or the supporting data and to be frank I wouldn't expect them too. The Op YELLOWHAMMER report is in effect just the exec summary.

What the report does say is that these are the possible outcomes despite the mitigation plans.

Mojo

Actually, risk analysis involves more than what you have said, but I'll just stick to what I know in practice (as a former investment surveyor who has actualy done portfolio performance and risk analysis for a major portfolio).

A risk involves a probability of something happening and identifying the factors that affect it and, if possible, the correlation between those risk factors and the degree of change of the outcome - normally expressed as a Beta factor (a multiplier) for volatility. 

All the commentators I have heard today who have read this report say that it is based on identifying the reasonable worst case scenario for outcomes if nothing further to mitigate the risks is done.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 12, 2019, 21:41:09 PM
Once again, remoaners are trying to misinterpret an internal government report on no-deal Brexit preparations, which looks at a reasonable worse case scenraio, by suggesting that the worst case problems that might occur if no further preparations are made will actually occur as if no preparations are being made.

This is plainly dishonest and is shamlessly misleading.

Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels.

This is exactly what the government is actually doing.

It is a lie to say that the problems envisaged will actually happen.  They might happen if no further preparations are made.

I'll bite.

In an assessment of risk, any identified risk must have an event and a probability of it happening.  You then have two initial possible outcomes, one where it doesn't occur and a second where it does happen. You assess the probability of it happening and impact to determine your mitigation action.  This report does not, as you suggest state that this outcome will occur if no action is taken but rather this is the worst outcome despite the mitigation. Unfortunately the worst come has been redacted.

Now the probabilty has not been published or the supporting data and to be frank I wouldn't expect them too. The Op YELLOWHAMMER report is in effect just the exec summary.

What the report does say is that these are the possible outcomes despite the mitigation plans.

Mojo

Actually, risk analysis involves more than what you have said, but I'll just stick to what I know in practice (as a former investment surveyor who has actualy done portfolio performance and risk analysis for a major portfolio).

A risk involves a probability of something happening and identifying the factors that affect it and, if possible, the correlation between those risk factors and the degree of change of the outcome - normally expressed as a Beta factor (a multiplier) for volatility. 

All the commentators I have heard today who have read this report say that it is based on identifying the reasonable worst case scenario for outcomes if nothing further to mitigate the risks is done.

As a programme manager for a £700M programe I can assure you that I fully understand how to manage risk.

The YELLOWHAMMER report is not the unmitigated impact it is the mitigated impact for a given probabi!ity.  The published version is exactly the same as 2nd of August leaked report with the oil refinery closure impact redacted. The "reasonably worst" is clearly nonsense designed to give a particular message.  It is either the worst case or it is not.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 13, 2019, 09:07:11 AM
I’m inclined to think that almost everyone who gets to be a programme manager is basically over promoted beyond their ability to manage anything on the basis of knowing PRINCE 2 and successfully managing projects which luckily did not go wrong. Certainly anyone managing large railway or IT or Defence or NHS projects is bound to be clueless about the really technical details needed .... you just have to remember the long and growing list of major cockups happening with HS2 being the latest scandal.

In my experience, programme managers don’t understand the true meaning of risk analysis. They just know what outcomes would be bad and the usual, practical and best ways to avoid the problems. They are usually clueless about how to actually measure risk and all the various risk factors in any meaningful and mathematically valid way.

I am inclined to think the civil servants involved in measuring the no deal risks would be the worst of the lot and would make normal programme managers or similar look supremely professional and sophisticated ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 13, 2019, 10:06:14 AM
I’m inclined to think that almost everyone who gets to be a programme manager is basically over promoted beyond their ability to manage anything on the basis of knowing PRINCE 2 and successfully managing projects which luckily did not go wrong. Certainly anyone managing large railway or IT or Defence or NHS projects is bound to be clueless about the really technical details needed .... you just have to remember the long and growing list of major cockups happening with HS2 being the latest scandal.

In my experience, programme managers don’t understand the true meaning of risk analysis. They just know what outcomes would be bad and the usual, practical and best ways to avoid the problems. They are usually clueless about how to actually measure risk and all the various risk factors in any meaningful and mathematically valid way.

I am inclined to think the civil servants involved in measuring the no deal risks would be the worst of the lot and would make normal programme managers or similar look supremely professional and sophisticated ....

I find this a very strange post you praise the proffessional staff at Wiltshire Council yet denigrate others without evidence.

HS2 is being delivered by a private company, High Speed Two Ltd.

I do agree that many public projects do run in to trouble but mostly because of desire to protect the programme by committing too early when the end point and associated risks are not fully understood.  A bit like Brexit really.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 13, 2019, 10:13:23 AM
I did not refer to Wiltshire Council and certainly was not thinking about anyone there as I don't know anyone myself who is or was a programme manager in the sense we are talking about here.

I would not denigrate any staff at Wiltshire Council unless I am being very specific about what is going wrong. My thread about ongoing council standards investigations (based on legal nonsense) certainly does denigrate certain officers involved in legal matters.  I've been threatened with legal action in the past and replied that I'll see them in Court .... with nothing then happening ....

As far as I am aware, the phrase "civil servants" means central government officers, not council officers.  Also, in my experience, senior staff at WC responsible for the largest budgets are immensely well qualified and competent. I just don't include the lawyers in that as they don't actually manage large projects - they give advice on legal matters and quite often fudge what they say according to what some politicians in control want to hear .......  I suppose they know full well how the HR system works to remove staff and the most senior officers when the controlling politicians dislike certain officers who won't bend the law and other rules, such as rearranging the department. Heck, the last council leader actually fired the chief executive, who was doing a very good job, and gave the role to herself (in effect) by not rehiring anyone into the role ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 13, 2019, 12:11:48 PM
Quote
Obviously, the whole purpose of identifying what the worst problems might be is to actually prepare to avoid the problems or at least reduce them to much more manageable levels


This is for the country who's people rang 999 when KFC ran out of chicken.
God knows what they will do if some of what's in  operation yellowhammer happens


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43140836 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43140836)

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 13, 2019, 12:57:08 PM
I did not refer to Wiltshire Council and certainly was not thinking about anyone there as I don't know anyone myself who is or was a programme manager in the sense we are talking about here.

I would not denigrate any staff at Wiltshire Council unless I am being very specific about what is going wrong. My thread about ongoing council standards investigations (based on legal nonsense) certainly does denigrate certain officers involved in legal matters.  I've been threatened with legal action in the past and replied that I'll see them in Court .... with nothing then happening ....

As far as I am aware, the phrase "civil servants" means central government officers, not council officers.  Also, in my experience, senior staff at WC responsible for the largest budgets are immensely well qualified and competent. I just don't include the lawyers in that as they don't actually manage large projects - they give advice on legal matters and quite often fudge what they say according to what some politicians in control want to hear .......  I suppose they know full well how the HR system works to remove staff and the most senior officers when the controlling politicians dislike certain officers who won't bend the law and other rules, such as rearranging the department. Heck, the last council leader actually fired the chief executive, who was doing a very good job, and gave the role to herself (in effect) by not rehiring anyone into the role ...

I suspect we are in more agreement than disagreement.  I know you did not refer to council staff, I was just drawing a comparison regarding your statement about one group of public employees (that I agree with) against your comments about another.  The point I may have being making badly is you chose to denigrate the civil service who are equally well qualified and competent but who legally are denied the right of reply and in some cases (quire rightly) have significant political restrictions placed on them.

One quick comment on the MOD, they are the only government department that is deemed competent to spend taxpayers money without referral to the Treasury and not just on national security grounds.  Having said that all big MOD projects do need Treasury endorsement.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 13, 2019, 23:39:22 PM
Cameron is back in the news,and accuses Mr Johnson and Mr Gove of behaving “appallingly” during the referendum campaign, and claims Mr Johnson only campaigned for Leave for his own career prospects.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-cameron-attacks-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-over-brexit-as-he-breaks-silence/ar-AAHfS6R?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-cameron-attacks-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-over-brexit-as-he-breaks-silence/ar-AAHfS6R?ocid=ientp)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 14, 2019, 03:59:28 AM
Cameron is back in the news,and accuses Mr Johnson and Mr Gove of behaving “appallingly” during the referendum campaign, and claims Mr Johnson only campaigned for Leave for his own career prospects.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-cameron-attacks-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-over-brexit-as-he-breaks-silence/ar-AAHfS6R?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/david-cameron-attacks-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-over-brexit-as-he-breaks-silence/ar-AAHfS6R?ocid=ientp)


What do you expect from The Arch Remainer and Leader himself?


Afterall, he was in charge of and himself led the official Remain campaign and lost .... very badly ..... and resigned when he said he would not ....... and then found himself unemployable and generally reviled ........


Nah ...... no credibility left ...... and obviously stirring everything up to sell his book .......
Title: Labour MPs offer backing to revised Brexit withdrawal deal
Post by: baldy on September 14, 2019, 04:06:36 AM
I have to say that the latest hints from the DUP and others that the shape of a doable deal is emerging is probably the best news in a long time for everyone as leaving with a deal is best for everyone regardless of whether you wanted leave or remain in 2016 ...


The Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mps-offer-backing-to-revised-brexit-withdrawal-deal-df3b9w7gd?shareToken=cb7bbadc47fcfedf8f17cbfe5c8fb5f7 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-mps-offer-backing-to-revised-brexit-withdrawal-deal-df3b9w7gd?shareToken=cb7bbadc47fcfedf8f17cbfe5c8fb5f7)




Labour MPs offer backing to revised Brexit withdrawal deal


Boris Johnson’s hopes of getting a deal through the Commons have been given a boost by Labour MPs who are indicating that they could back a new compromise.

The prime minister said that a “rough shape of a deal to be done” was emerging before his first meeting with Jean-Claude Juncker, the outgoing president of the European Commission, on Monday. He will also meet Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator.

The Times revealed yesterday that the DUP was shifting some of its red lines to unlock a deal with the EU. Critically, the Northern Irish party has privately indicated that it could accept regulatory checks in the Irish Sea and divergence from Britain with the consent of the province’s democratic institutions.

Mr Johnson said that he was hopeful about getting a new deal despite senior DUP figures, including its leader, Arlene Foster, and Sammy Wilson, its Brexit spokesman, playing down the concessions. After an event in Rotherham yesterday Mr Johnson said: “We are working incredibly hard to get a deal. There is the rough shape of the deal to be done.

“As some of you may have seen, I myself have been to talk to various other EU leaders, particularly in Germany, in France and in Ireland, where we made a good deal of progress. I’m seeing the president of the [European] Commission and the chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, on Monday and we will talk about the ideas that we’ve been working on and we will see where we get. I would say I’m cautiously optimistic.”

With at least some Tory Brexiteers irreconcilable to a repackaged version of Theresa May’s deal, Mr Johnson’s hopes rest on attracting more Labour support than his predecessor.

The Labour MPs Caroline Flint, Stephen Kinnock and Yvonne Fovargue indicated that they could back the emerging compromise deal. “We need to bring this process to a swift conclusion and to deliver the result of the referendum and all sides must be prepared to compromise,” Ms Fovargue said. The Makerfield MP, who did not vote for Mrs May’s deal on the three times it was put to the Commons, added: “There are a number of Labour MPs who are committed to this process and want the chance to scrutinise and vote for a deal.”

Ms Flint, the MP for Don Valley who voted for Mrs May’s deal twice, said: “I think what we are hearing from the DUP and the prime minister is a willingness to compromise to get a deal. That will avoid most people’s worst outcome. There is a sizeable cross-party block building up [in support of a deal]”.

Mr Kinnock, the MP for Aberavon, said that Mr Johnson would need to resurrect commitments offered by Mrs May to Jeremy Corbyn to secure support from across the political divide but also called for more compromise. “It’s very encouraging to see signs of the DUP edging towards compromise, which will boost support among Conservative MPs. But to maximise Labour support the prime minister must ensure that he includes the important commitments and concessions that were secured by the Labour negotiating team through the cross-party talks.

“If he is able to combine an acceptable position on the backstop with a declaration on the future relationship that protects jobs and livelihoods, he will have a package that can command a stable parliamentary majority.”

A spokeswoman for the European Commission said that Mr Juncker was “looking forward to working constructively” with the prime minister. She said the talks would be held at a “neutral location” rather than the British embassy or a commission venue. Mr Juncker will then address the European parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday about the progress in the negotiations.

Ms Foster sought to preserve the DUP’s public position. “We are keen to see a sensible deal but not one that divides the internal market of the UK,” she said. “We will not support arrangements that create a barrier to east-west trade.” Mr Wilson went further in denying a shift. He told BBC Radio 4’s Today that the proposals ran “contrary to the position we’ve adopted throughout negotiations”. He acknowledged, though, that his party had softened its language.

Despite Ms Foster’s and Mr Wilson’s insistence, party sources say that they could accept regulatory divergence with the “consent” of Northern Irish democratic institutions. They made clear that this would not require the executive and assembly to be restored before October 31. “That could happen in the transition period,” they said. They were “positive” that a deal could be done.

The deal could find favour with the EU, which fears Northern Ireland becoming a back door into its single market for non-compliant goods if the UK signs trade deals with countries such as the United States.
Title: Re: Labour MPs offer backing to revised Brexit withdrawal deal
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 14, 2019, 10:29:33 AM

I have to say that the latest hints from the DUP and others that the shape of a doable deal is emerging is probably the best news in a long time for everyone as leaving with a deal is best for everyone regardless of whether you wanted leave or remain in 2016 ...




You've changed your stance a bit Baldy?

I thought you were going to throw your body into the ditch along with BoJo.  ;D
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 15, 2019, 11:45:23 AM
TBH I've gone past the point of caring whether we leave with or without a deal as we'll cope one way or another anyway ...

I've never considered the issue to be one where I would put my own life on the line. That was just Boris being dramatic ....

One day, we are going to have to see Boris in a pantomine or someone pretending to be him .......
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 15, 2019, 13:51:48 PM


One day, we are going to have to see Boris in a pantomine or someone pretending to be him .......

It feels like we are watching a pantomime now with BoJo as principal boy.

Oh yes it does !
Title: Lib Dem government to stop Brexit on day one
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 17, 2019, 10:19:26 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49720863

I don't believe we will end up with Jo Swinson as PM however this is a great ploy by the Lib Dems to boost their number of MP's which currently is about 18. There are probably enough voters prepared to vote for a party which will revoke article 50 and give the Lib Dems, not a majority, but a substantial amount of MP's to influence parliament.

Of course here has to be an election before the UK leaves the EU for this to happen anyway.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 17, 2019, 14:57:20 PM
The Limp-Dems will end up hammering Labour in Remain seats. Corbyn's leadership of the Communist Party in Britain -- oops I mean the Labour Party  -- is coming to an end unless Momentum has a death wish ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 17, 2019, 15:37:15 PM
It's an interesting stance by the Lib Dems, and all or nothing approach.  To be fair they don't really have much to lose, and a lot to gain by have a clear policy. They will obviously lose seats in the pro leave areas of the south west, but will pick up seats in pro remain areas that Labour / Cons currently hold.

Their problem is that they are very unlikely to have a majority, but very likely to be part of any coalition. By ruling out working the BoJo and JFC where does that leave them?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 17, 2019, 16:13:54 PM
In any case is the Lib Dems do win a majority those that didn't vote Lib Dem could just ignore the result and demand another election, or just cancel the result of the election.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 17, 2019, 17:29:04 PM
It's an interesting stance by the Lib Dems, and all or nothing approach.  To be fair they don't really have much to lose, and a lot to gain by have a clear policy. They will obviously lose seats in the pro leave areas of the south west, but will pick up seats in pro remain areas that Labour / Cons currently hold.

Their problem is that they are very unlikely to have a majority, but very likely to be part of any coalition. By ruling out working the BoJo and JFC where does that leave them?
The Lib/ Dems decision to ignore the result of 2016 referendum is neither liberal nor democratic, the current Conservative Government policy, far from being conservative is in fact a radical change from its normal stance, the Labour policy of accepting the result of the referendum is not popular in some areas, and indeed has its critics within the party, all parties are split.
The current situation is unlike any in recent past and therefore difficult to call, but the Labour Party must hold its ground, its manifesto for the 2017 GE was to accept the referendum result, and to negotiate a deal to leave, pandering to a supposed support for remain is not the answer.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 17, 2019, 21:28:21 PM
It's an interesting stance by the Lib Dems, and all or nothing approach.  To be fair they don't really have much to lose, and a lot to gain by have a clear policy. They will obviously lose seats in the pro leave areas of the south west, but will pick up seats in pro remain areas that Labour / Cons currently hold.

Their problem is that they are very unlikely to have a majority, but very likely to be part of any coalition. By ruling out working the BoJo and JFC where does that leave them?
The Lib/ Dems decision to ignore the result of 2016 referendum is neither liberal nor democratic, the current Conservative Government policy, far from being conservative is in fact a radical change from its normal stance, the Labour policy of accepting the result of the referendum is not popular in some areas, and indeed has its critics within the party, all parties are split.
The current situation is unlike any in recent past and therefore difficult to call, but the Labour Party must hold its ground, its manifesto for the 2017 GE was to accept the referendum result, and to negotiate a deal to leave, pandering to a supposed support for remain is not the answer.

I'll be contrary. The Lib Dem decision is democratic; in a democracy people have the absolute right to oppose things they disagree with and to voice that opposition.  I find it perverse that to claim this opposition is undemocratic, it is the very essence of democracy.  The Lib Dems are stating their clear opposition by declaring that they will revoke Article 50. There may well be an election and those who bother to vote can register their support or rejection of Lib Dem position at the ballot box.

The fundamentals of democracy is that statment of belief, it then being tested in a vote and crucially the right to change your mind.  As leading brexiter David Davis says "if a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy".

If you support the Lib Dem position then vote, if you reject that position then guess what? VOTE!

The way things are currently going we're going to end up like Italy and have general elections every 6 months...

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 17, 2019, 21:50:47 PM
I agree, Mojo.  There is nothing more democratic than standing on a policy at a general election and then, if they win a majority, implementing their policy. This is how democracy works, pure and simple.

It is up to the people to vote. Simple.


Of course, though, there is not a cat in Hell's chance of the Limp-Dems winning a majority, but them campaigning as the one true Remain party will do wonders to ensure that Brexit actually occurs with a stronger Conservative Party ... perhaps with help from Nigel and his Brexit Party ...
Title: Is Jo Swinson turning into the Nigel Farage of remain?
Post by: Pete on September 18, 2019, 14:50:43 PM
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-is-jo-swinson-turning-into-the-nigel-farage-of-remain-11812718
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 18, 2019, 16:47:36 PM


Mojo says, "the Lib Dem decision is democratic; in a democracy people have the absolute right to oppose things they disagree with and to voice that opposition."
There is nothing wrong in opposing Brexit, but that issue was put to a referendum and voters decided to leave the EU, democracy demands that issue should be dealt with, not ignored as the Lib/Dems proposed to do, nothing democratic in ignoring 17.4 ml voters who were in the majority.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 18, 2019, 17:42:44 PM


Mojo says, "the Lib Dem decision is democratic; in a democracy people have the absolute right to oppose things they disagree with and to voice that opposition."
There is nothing wrong in opposing Brexit, but that issue was put to a referendum and voters decided to leave the EU, democracy demands that issue should be dealt with, not ignored as the Lib/Dems proposed to do, nothing democratic in ignoring 17.4 ml voters who were in the majority.

The vote hasn't been ignored. Various governments have spent the last 3 years trying to implement that vote. My understanding is that the Lib Dems are claiming that the past 3 yrs has shown that Brexit cannot be delivered in a way that protects the fabric and integrity of the UK, that a majority no longer support BREXIT and therefore propose to rescind Article 50. If an election is called that will be in their manifesto and it will tested at the ballot. That is the democratic process in the UK. If you don't support their view vote for those whose view you do support; democracy in action.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 19, 2019, 07:32:43 AM

The vote is certainly being ignored by the Lib/Dems, and the Tory government who have been in power since the 2016 referendum have spectacularly failed to get any agreement on fulfilling the required result.
Both major party's in parliament stood on a policy of accepting that referendum result in the 2017 GE and indeed parliament itself voted to implement Article 50.
It remains to be seen whether PM Johnson is able to get any deal and parliament have voted against a no deal, the Labour Party leadership believes a deal is possible and are ready to negotiate one, once negotiated this can be put to the nation that's real democracy
Title: Lib Dem Candidate Resigns After Car Crash Interview
Post by: baldy on September 19, 2019, 16:02:43 PM



Lib Dem Candidate Resigns After Car Crash Interview:


https://order-order.com/2019/09/19/lib-dem-candidate-resigns-car-crash-interview/ (https://order-order.com/2019/09/19/lib-dem-candidate-resigns-car-crash-interview/)

Twitter:  https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1174635251903139842?s=20 (https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1174635251903139842?s=20)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 19, 2019, 18:46:22 PM
Not surprised, it was pretty bad, and would have guaranteed she lost her seat.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 20, 2019, 18:56:19 PM
There’s an argument now that the result of the years and years ago referendum be disregarded as most of those who voted leave then, are now dead and the majority is now with remain.

 ;D  8)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 23, 2019, 13:44:23 PM
Those worrying about Brexit, should worry more about a Labour government running the country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 23, 2019, 15:42:58 PM
Those worrying about Brexit, should worry more about a Labour government running the country.
A Jeremy Corbyn led Democratic Socialist government, leave or remain, is the only sensible choice for this country. The Tories and their supporters, the Lib Dems have given us two disastrous austerity driven governments, and with the Tory's under their new leader are set to continue in the same manner.
These policies have given us more homeless, food banks, zero hours contracts, declining public services. A National Health service on it's knees with a shortage of doctors and nurses, fewer police officers, a public transport system that's not fit for purpose and increasingly expensive. Privatisation of public utilities, water, gas, electric, the post office, all providing large profits and declining services.
A Labour Government? Bring it on.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on September 23, 2019, 17:34:07 PM
IM OFF
Title: BoJo broke the law!
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 24, 2019, 11:04:57 AM
BoJo the Clown broke the law and lied to the Queen.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/24/boris-johnson-broke-law-parliament-suspension-supreme-court-rules-10797329/



Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 24, 2019, 13:54:00 PM
Interesting to see what will happen now. Normally there would be a vote of no confidence, but Labour are running scared of a general election. The SNP / Lib Dems / Labour can huff and puff all they like but they are the ones that could get rid of him.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 24, 2019, 14:04:27 PM
I think BJ should do a deal with Nigel and then call for a no confidence vote in his own government as he has nothing to lose from this and everything to gain in terms of virtually guaranteeing that he wins the election with Brexit Party support as part of a coalition pact. I see a distinct extra advantage from this in that the Remainer Tory MPs who have lost the Tory whip will in the process be flushed away for good and the new Government will be in a strong position to simply BREXIT without a deal on a date of their choosing ...

I imagine Nigel will suddenly find himself part of the Government, even if he does not win his own parliamentary seat because he could be put in the Lords. That would be so entertaining that I really hope it happens ...  if only to see how sick all the remainiacs look ...

I can imagine Trump returning for a State visit including a ride in a golden coach soon after too ... !

As for that communist Corbyn, I have to admire the fella for doing all he can to shoot himself and his party in both feet and both knees at every opportunity so that he will never win an election, not least because he's actually doing all he can to avoid one and also ruin his chances of winning one if it happens with his hopelessly unclear and convoluted position on BREXIT ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 24, 2019, 14:29:35 PM
I think BJ should do a deal with Nigel and then call for a no confidence vote in his own government

I think the lying, law breaking, scruple less clown should resign! simple. He's the worst PM we've ever had....

I don't know who wold be the next to pick up the poisoned chalice though...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on September 24, 2019, 14:54:03 PM


I think the lying, law breaking, scruple less clown should resign! simple. He's the worst PM we've ever had....


That's the predicament the opposition find themselves in. He won't , and they won't back a call for a GE or call a vote of no confidence.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 24, 2019, 15:21:35 PM


I think the lying, law breaking, scruple less clown should resign! simple. He's the worst PM we've ever had....


That's the predicament the opposition find themselves in. He won't , and they won't back a call for a GE or call a vote of no confidence.

Correct. They are waiting for the noose he's dangling from to tighten and finish him off. They don't have to do anything. BoJo is hanging himself!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 24, 2019, 15:37:50 PM
Not if he does not resign. When the election comes, he will win it, probably with support from the DUP and Brexit Party. There is no way the Tories will want to go through another leadership contest.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 24, 2019, 17:56:55 PM
I'm not so sure, I suspect that many are now starting to see Boris as a liability.  Having read and watched the contortions the Labour party are attempting so as not to commit to anthing, they are unlikely to win the election that they want in November.  Why November? Easy it allows the opposition parties to do one of two things:
1. Show that a no deal brexit has been a disaster and squarely blame the Conservatives or,
2.  Show that Boris can't be trusted to keep his word and deliver brexit at the end of October.

What ever does happen I suspect that we will see some form of electoral reform.  However much I believe that Farage is a snake oil salesman it can't be right that the parties he has led has not had electoral success. That should change.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 24, 2019, 18:26:50 PM
Easy it allows the opposition parties to do one of two things:
1. Show that a no deal brexit has been a disaster and squarely blame the Conservatives or,
2.  Show that Boris can't be trusted to keep his word and deliver brexit at the end of October.
Mojo
So what part of the following don't you understand.
Labour Party Conference has agreed to-

1. Make sure no deal is off the table.
2. Call a general election.

And if you've got that, this is what will follow with Labour in power-

1. Negotiate a deal that includes a free trade and safeguards the Good Friday Agreement.
2. Put that deal to the country.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: mojo on September 24, 2019, 20:44:53 PM
Easy it allows the opposition parties to do one of two things:
1. Show that a no deal brexit has been a disaster and squarely blame the Conservatives or,
2.  Show that Boris can't be trusted to keep his word and deliver brexit at the end of October.
Mojo
So what part of the following don't you understand.
Labour Party Conference has agreed to-

1. Make sure no deal is off the table.
2. Call a general election.

And if you've got that, this is what will follow with Labour in power-

1. Negotiate a deal that includes a free trade and safeguards the Good Friday Agreement.
2. Put that deal to the country.

That's easy, assume Labour get in to power, they claim after the paper vote at conference:
1. That they will renegotiate the brexit deal, ok I can buy that but we need to understand that it's not the deal just the terms of departure.
2. Having renegotiated a deal Labour claim that they will hold a one day special conference to determine whether to support the deal that they have negotiated or to support remain in a second vote.  That is just not credible.

Labour should just get off the fence and decide whether to be a remain or leave supporting party. If they choose leave then they loose the remain support and are unlikely to sway the hard brexiteers from the Brexit party and if they choose remain they have in all probability already lost their traditional working class leave supporters.

Both Labour and Conservative parties are openly divided.  They Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Brexit parties are atleast being consistent, although I do wonder if the Brexit Party will try the same trick they used at the european elections and not publish a manifesto.

Mojo
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 24, 2019, 21:03:26 PM
What an arrogant, privileged-twerp Johnson is. He strongly disagrees with the highest judicial court in the country over their decision. Unbelievable!!
 He is clearly not fit to be a MP never mind PM.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 24, 2019, 22:14:34 PM

It really is quite clear the Labour Party will negotiate a deal with the EU, put that deal to the nation, with a remain option.
Labours own position will be discussed and decided at conference when an agreement on a deal is reached with the EU. A democratic decision made by a democratic party.
The ultimate decision however will be made by the electorate, accept the deal and leave the EU, or remain a member of the EU. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on September 24, 2019, 22:27:58 PM

It really is quite clear the Labour Party will negotiate a deal with the EU, put that deal to the nation, with a remain option.
Labours own position will be discussed and decided at conference when an agreement on a deal is reached with the EU. A democratic decision made by a democratic party.
The ultimate decision however will be made by the electorate, accept the deal and leave the EU, or remain a member of the EU.

So BrINO or remain? not much of a choice.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 25, 2019, 07:40:32 AM
Brexit in name only.
Well that depends on the deal, but it is a choice and one that may well end this farce and allow government to get on with the problems caused by nearly a decade of austerity. Perhaps we need to accept that neither leave or remain supporters can get all that they want.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 25, 2019, 08:30:39 AM


So BrINO or remain? not much of a choice.


Same choice we were given over three years ago. Leave or remain. Nobody stipulated that there had to be specific or no terms on leaving. Not on my ballot paper anyway?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 25, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
Trust a remoaner to want to fudge the meaning of Brexit into nonsense by trying to achieve a form of Brexit that is not really Brexit at all.

Throughout the referendum campaign before June 2016, the leaderrs of the Leave campaigns made it clear that they wanted to leave all the institutions of the EU but to keep access to the common market and be able to negotiate our own trade deals with other countries. This can only be done by fully leaving the market and the customs union.

Labour is trying to achieve a nonsense that keeps membership of the customs union which means that there is no point in leaving at all because in effect we won't have properly left and will still be tied into the EU in so many ways that it is just BRINO.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 25, 2019, 11:25:54 AM


Throughout the referendum campaign before June 2016, the leaderrs of the Leave campaigns made it clear that they wanted to leave all the institutions of the EU but to keep access to the common market and be able to negotiate our own trade deals with other countries. This can only be done by fully leaving the market and the customs union.



They might have or not I can't remember but that was just their view. Are you trying to say that everyone who voted leave did so because they all wanted they same? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 25, 2019, 13:46:57 PM

Oops - I meant to say the single market - not common market. 

I don't suppose everyone wants the same or votes one way or another for all the same reasons in any ballot. The fact of the matter is that everyone was told what the key protagonists for either proposition (Leave or Remain) said on the matter via endless TV debates and leaflets...




Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 25, 2019, 16:30:11 PM
But they didn't all say the same thing. In fact there was, IIRC, at least two separate leave campaigns both proposing different views on what leave meant. Most voters (51% anyway) can't decide whether they want a KFC on the bone or not for dinner never mind anything else.

So for rees-Mogg, BoJo etc to say that they all wanted what they want is total bollocks!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 25, 2019, 16:48:58 PM
Well, obviously the key protagonists for each proposition (Leave or Remain) were the leaders of the OFFICIAL CAMPAIGNS.


Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on September 26, 2019, 18:06:40 PM
I'm not a big fan of Ed's but I think he got this spot on.



(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70794199_10157518848823493_1508897018393657344_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQnOfX_1Uu9bxO1UisUNexbTLm-I3jG2PR0ihCESxNApNeZwj6KHjMbndAireN495j8&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=e98a26ea00e5ea5e3a4e860fe26d60fa&oe=5DFF723C)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 26, 2019, 20:06:12 PM
Well, Ed is a remoaner who always talks crap and even tried to fix his crap in stone on his Ed Stone, which he even hid away so no-one can now see it.

I have to say that I feel hatred for the most revolting remoaners. They deserve the utter contempt they get for trying to cheat everyone out of the result of the referendum.

Parliament is stuffed full of frightful remoaners and socialists who pretend to be finding issues but in reality are just frustrating progress in Brexit with any available excuse.

I am not surprised that they get death threats, though I don't condone that.  I will not be surprised if a few get shot or burnt alive or blown up eventually by Leave nutcases (obviously some are about).
Title: Boris ... could ... SUSPEND ... law against No Deal and force Brexit on Oct 31 !
Post by: baldy on September 27, 2019, 10:12:32 AM
Mail Online:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7510397/John-Major-accuses-Boris-Johnson-deliberately-wrecking-prospects-agreement-Brexit.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7510397/John-Major-accuses-Boris-Johnson-deliberately-wrecking-prospects-agreement-Brexit.html)


Wow!  Just WOW!


I would agree that this is the way to go.


I used to support John Major as PM in the 90s and now regret my stance. At last, I see why he led the Tories to a landslide defeat in 1997 and why the Tories were banished for 13 years after him ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on September 27, 2019, 13:19:46 PM
Well, Ed is a remoaner who always talks crap and even tried to fix his crap in stone on his Ed Stone, which he even hid away so no-one can now see it.

I have to say that I feel hatred for the most revolting remoaners. They deserve the utter contempt they get for trying to cheat everyone out of the result of the referendum.

Parliament is stuffed full of frightful remoaners and socialists who pretend to be finding issues but in reality are just frustrating progress in Brexit with any available excuse.

I am not surprised that they get death threats, though I don't condone that.  I will not be surprised if a few get shot or burnt alive or blown up eventually by Leave nutcases (obviously some are about).

Well, I hope that doesn't happen... worth remembering the MPs Airey Neave, Ian Gow and Anthony Berry, all murdered by Mr Corbyn's IRA friends.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 27, 2019, 14:19:37 PM
That is of course completely below the belt John and I would expect better from you, many politicians from both sides of the Northern Ireland troubles had meetings, not just with IRA but with UDA and others involved in armed struggle.
It would not have been resolved had it not been for such talks, and you may recall that it was the Labour Governments Mo Mowlem who was instrumental in the successful Good Friday agreement.
I do however agree that targeting and threatening  those who express different views is totally abhorrent and I would urge all to conduct debate in a civilised manner.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: John GL on September 27, 2019, 14:53:27 PM
There's a difference between negotiating on behalf of the Government with terrorists and openly sympathising with them.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on September 27, 2019, 15:32:49 PM
Jeremy Corbyn's meetings with Sean Fein are not denied neither is his belief in a united Ireland however he is on record in and interview with Sky News as saying, “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”
His meetings with Sean Fein held in the 1980s were always open and were the topic of discussion at the time, they were never considered wrong or illegal by the authorities.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 27, 2019, 15:54:30 PM
the longer this goes on the more I believe BoJo is being used as a fall guy or a puppet, or both, by hardliners in the party such as Rees-Mogg and his cronies who are feeding him his lines. They know that the chances of delivering Brexit by the end of next month is very slim and by pushing BoJo to the front he is the one that will take all the flack when it doesn't happen. Of course there is a slim chance that by hook or by crook, probably crook, it will happen. This is BoJo's carrot. He will be hailed as a hero by every right wing extremist and go down in history as the PM who led the country out of the shackles of Europe.

Of course if and when he fails to do that, his friends will start sticking knives in him. Then they will look for another puppet - if they are still in government by then of course.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on September 27, 2019, 17:32:38 PM
Oh, the irony...

"BORIS JOHNSON is reportedly considering using the supremacy of European law over UK legislation to take Britain out of the EU without a deal."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1183330/Brexit-news-Boris-Johnson-EU-deal-no-deal-Brexit-latest-Juncker

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 27, 2019, 18:14:17 PM
He's being manipulated. He doesn't think of these things off his own back. A fall guy!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 29, 2019, 02:55:12 AM

Updated 29/9/19


I think you must be on your own with this idea.

Boris is clearly the Leader of his party, of this country and of his campaigns and he uses other people as close or not so close advisers to whom he may delegate most if not practically all the work involved, apart from speeches and photo-opportunities.

If he is getting into trouble with his opponents, he is probably succeeding in his political aims at present which is to build up respect from Leave supporters that he is facing the disgusting Remain mob who shamelessly throw up all sorts of nonsense including tantrums and false indignation to try to resist Brexit.

I don't recall Boris ever losing a big vote after a long campaign where he is the leader and lots of angry folk endlessly criticise him.  He clearly thrives on this way of campaigning, including getting the other side to look more and more against the public that supports him.

At the end of several long-running investigations about me back in 2007 at WWDC, when I was exonerated on every allegation by Bill Braid (yet again!), one leading and long-standing district councillor (now my group leader at WC) described me as the local "Boris". TBH, I was flattered but I don't put myself in Boris's league as he really has mastered the art of being offensive and succeeding in climbing the greasy pole of politics at the same time.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on September 30, 2019, 12:32:51 PM
Just watched the BBC News channel and saw Ian Duncan-Smith answer a direct question about how Boris would respond to the requirement under the new law (the "Surrender Act") for him to send a letter to the EU asking for yet another extension to Article 50 to continue negotiations for a deal if no withdrawal agreement deal has been achieved by mid-October.  The answer was fascinating.

He said that Boris will definitely not sign it and repeated that Boris is not going to sign it and then he refused to explain how Boris would comply with the law and still not sign it.

It has dawned on me that the only possible answer to this conundrum is that Boris will resign as Prime Minister moments before he is required to sign the letter in order to avoid having to sign it so that he can then blame any other person (ie. a new grand coalition opposition PM - if that actually occurs) who signs it (to carry out the purpose of the "Surrender Act") for being a "Surrender Monkey" or perhaps "Traitor" acting on behalf of the "Surrender Monkeys" or "Traitors" who voted for the "Surrender Act" ... which all then forces a high drama situation where a general election will quickly occur.

I believe that by resigning as PM, it would force the Queen to invite JC MP, as leader of the next largest party, to form a government and become PM. He may fail to be able to do so. In any event, any such next new PM would be highly temporary as a general election is wanted by a clear majority and Boris and his fellow Tory MPs would then vote for one and so will most other MPs, if not all of them.

Boris, as continuing Leader of the Conservative Party, would then be in prime position for a landslide win with help from the Brexit Party which will have to help out or lose its reason for its existence ...

Here is a MailOnline article which seems to agree that Boris would be sacked by the Queen if he refuses to sign the letter. I think he would simply resign first.

Mail Online: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7520285/Dominic-Grieve-claims-Boris-Johnson-SACKED-QUEEN-fails-seek-Brexit-delay.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7520285/Dominic-Grieve-claims-Boris-Johnson-SACKED-QUEEN-fails-seek-Brexit-delay.html)
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on September 30, 2019, 14:10:12 PM
No matter how many times you use the word surrender, you'll still not get into BoJo's league of being a complete tw@t !

There isn't a majority not wanting to leave, just a majority not wanting to leave without a decent deal in place. Even Cummings's mouthpiece has said he would prefer a deal.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 01, 2019, 20:26:39 PM
Not sure whether to smile or blush at that ...

I've been thinking more about what Boris will do on or just before 17 October to get out of being forced to sign the Surrender letter.

Dominic Cummings was interviewed in the street last night and he said that Boris will announce what he will do just before 17 October. Dominic Raab will undertake PMQs tomorrow for Boris, making it clear that Mr Raab is the likely Conservative deputy leader or next person to be PM in a situation where Boris resigns as PM but the Tories are still the largest party. Mr Raab can in theory be a PM whilst not being leader of the Tories.

The rabble of opposition parties cannot organise themselves to pass a motion of no confidence in the Tories ...    but, if ever any other PM was appointed who is not a Tory, the Tories could put down a no confidence motion and might quickly bring down the new PM thus forcing the Queen to call an election if one has not already been called and voted on and agreed.

It is possible that a Mr Raab PM would then also refuse to sign the Surrender letter and so on ....

I see a situation where very quickly the Queen is forced to close parliament and ensure a new election, and this might even prevent Article 50 being extended ... so the EU will be absolutely sick of it all and will simply agree the new deal terms Boris is about to put or they will let us crash out .... they are sick to their gills of it all ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 02, 2019, 09:53:02 AM


He said that Boris will definitely not sign it and repeated that Boris is not going to sign it and then he refused to explain how Boris would comply with the law and still not sign it.



BoJo being told what to do?


Dominic Cummings was intervewed in the street last night and he said that Boris will announce what he will do just before 17 October. Dominic Raab will undertake PMQs tomorrow for Boris, making it clear that Mr Raab is the likely Conservative deputy leader or next person to be PM in a situation where Boris resigns as PM but the Tories are still the largest party. Mr Raab can in theory be a PM whilst not being leader of the Tories.




BoJo being told what he has to do again?



The rabble of opposition parties cannot organise themselves to pass a motion of no confidence in the Tories ...    but, if ever any other PM was appointed who is not a Tory, the Tories could put down a no confidence motion and might quickly bring down the new PM thus forcing the Queen to call an election if one has not already been called and voted on and agreed.

It is possible that a Mr Raab PM would then also refuse to sign the Surrender letter and so on ....

I see a situation where very quickly the Queen is forced to close parliament and ensure a new election, and this might even prevent Article 50 being extended ... so the EU will be absolutely sick of it all and will simply agree the new deal terms Boris is about to put or they will let us crash out .... they are sick to their gills of it all ....

Are you playing a new game?  = Fantasy politics  ;D
Title: Boris Johnson's Brexit plan - Hungary will veto Article 50 Extension Request
Post by: baldy on October 04, 2019, 23:34:36 PM
Telegraph:  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/04/boris-johnson-pins-hopes-hungary-veto-brexit-delay/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/04/boris-johnson-pins-hopes-hungary-veto-brexit-delay/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)


Boris Johnson hopes Hungary will veto a Brexit extension as the Government said in court that he would comply with the law and request one.
The Benn Act requires the Prime Minister to send a letter to Brussels asking for an extension to Article 50 if he fails to agree a deal by Oct 19.
However, on Friday night, EU sources said senior ministers had reached out to the Hungarian government for assurances it would veto any request for a delay.
An Article 50 extension must be agreed by all 27 other EU leaders.
On Friday night the Prime Minister doubled down on his commitment to leave the EU on Oct 31, saying: “New deal or no deal – but no delay.”
His statement came hours after the Government’s legal team submitted papers to the Scottish Court of Session saying for the first time he would send the letter as stipulated by Parliament.
The Scottish case was brought by campaigners seeking to force Mr Johnson to comply with the Benn Act.
Lord Pentland, the judge ruling on the case, indicated a failure to obey the commitment given to comply with the Benn Act would amount to contempt.
However Steve Baker, chairman of the Eurosceptic European Research Group, on Friday said he was satisfied the documents submitted to the Scottish Court did not stop the UK from leaving the EU on Oct 31.
He said: “All this means is that Government will obey the law. It does not mean we will extend. It does not mean we will stay in the EU beyond Oct 31. We will leave.”
Meanwhile Robert Buckland, the Justice Secretary, attacked the “Brexit-blocking Benn Act”.
Writing for The Telegraph, Mr Buckland said: “We have compromised and we hope the EU will come to the table in that same spirit of compromise.” He added: “The UK public wants to move on from the Brexit bickering.”
On Friday Government sources suggested that the Prime Minister would both comply with the Act while also finding a way around it.
A senior Downing Street source said the Act “only imposes a very specific narrow duty concerning Parliament’s letter requesting a delay – drafted by an unknown subset of MPs and pro-EU campaigners – and which can be interpreted in different ways.
But the Government is not prevented by the Act from doing other things that cause no delay, including other communications, private and public.
People will have to wait to see how this is reconciled.
The Government is making its true position on delay known privately in Europe and this will become public soon.”
Michael Gove was among three senior ministers to hold separate meetings on Thursday with the Hungarian foreign minister.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who is in charge of no-deal preparations, held discussions with Peter Szijjarto and the Hungarian ambassador at the Cabinet Office.
On Friday night a Cabinet minister told The Daily Telegraph a veto was now the “only way to stop the effects of the Benn Act”.
A Government source said Viktor Orbán, Hungary’s prime minister, was the “most sympathetic [EU leader] to our cause.”
However, few in Brussels suggested that Hungary would break ranks with the other member states due to fears of reprisal.
While Mr Orbán’s governing party, Fidesz, has repeatedly clashed with Brussels over its domestic agenda, Hungary remains one of the biggest net recipients of EU funding.
Dominic Grieve, leading efforts in Parliament to stop no-deal, on Friday called the veto plan “very high-risk”, adding that Hungary voting against the bloc would “cause a seismic rift”.
Fearing Mr Johnson could use the veto option, campaigners seeking the Scottish court order asked the judge to also ban the Prime Minister from encouraging European allies to use a veto to torpedo an extension.
Cabinet ministers have previously said another option would be for Mr Johnson to send an accompanying document alongside a request to extend Article 50, setting out Government opposition to a three-month delay, although senior legal experts warned that this would be unlawful, as it would represent an attempt to circumvent the requirements of the Benn Act.
The Government appeared to rule out challenging the Benn Act in court.
One insider claimed on Friday evening that Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister’s chief of staff, had now shifted to seeking a “political solution”.
Meanwhile, the EU has engaged on Mr Johnson’s backstop proposals and will resume talks on Monday.
An EC spokesman said that it had given the UK its reaction on the proposals and had asked further questions.
But the spokesman added: “Michel Barnier debriefed [EU ambassadors] yesterday, where member states agreed the UK proposals do not provide a basis for concluding an agreement.”
A UK spokesman said: “We have made a significant offer this week. Our proposals represent a fair and reasonable compromise. We want a deal and talks continue on Monday on the basis of our offer.”
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 05, 2019, 14:17:16 PM
Brexit and the Irish Problem

The Irish Prime Minister Mr Varadkar said there are five ways to avoid a hard border, at least four of which would be acceptable to the Irish Government."
 And four of which have been rejected by the UK Government, which instead has suggested a solution that creates not one but two borders in N. Ireland and adds a referendum once every 4 years in a country which at present does not even have a sitting Parliament in a region which has enjoyed peace for only 20 years. So a referendum every four years on top of the question of identity politics brought back by the imposition of a border against the will of the majority of the Northern Irish (and Irish) populations is not bound to end well.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 09, 2019, 09:59:39 AM
The London Assembly standards investigation, including an extra level by the police into possible criminal aspects, into whether Boris complied with the local government code of conduct whilst he was London Mayor (2008-16) interests me because the code of conduct was the same for all local councillors until 2012 and since then they would have had the same basic requirements.

Every time I hear a Labour Party politician explain the issues, they get the issues wrong because they don't understand the way the code used to or does now work.

Basically, the Mayor and other elected members need to declare on a register their relevant interests such as ownership of property in their authority's area and any shareholdings plus any employment or membership of a relevant executive body such as a trustee so that anyone can see whether any dealings by that elected member might affect their own earnings or financial interests. As far as I can tell, Boris would have declared all his and mention of these declarations is just a red herring.

There is a separate requirement for elected members to declare any registered interests affected and any affected other relevant interests when they are using the power of their office to make a decision as part of their elected role. This means if the elected member themself or their close family or close friends are involved or affected by the decision, this must be declared at the meeting when the decision takes place.  If there is no financial effect, it is just a personal interest. If there is likely to be a financial effect as a result of the decision, this used to be a "prejudicial" interest and is now called a "pecuniary" interest and these definitely need to be declared at the relevant meeting if the member is taking part. A personal interest is also supposed to be declared but it does not stop the member from taking part in or making the decision. Forgetting to declare a personal interest would be a breach of the code but it is a very minor matter and would require an apology to be made.

It seems to me that Boris never took part in any decisions that were actually handled by committees he was not on or were simply handled by senior officers doing their job under the relevant allocation of duties amongst officers at the time.  If so, Boris had no need to make the extra declarations of who his "close friends" are. It would have been up to the officers to ask if he had any declarable interests when he is lobbying for a particular decision that he is not taking himself.

I can't see how an investigation can get anywhere towards an official code breach if the relevant officer chose not to make an issue of it at the time. In my mind are examples of what would happen at Wiltshire Council, whether it is a cabinet member or a backbencher who might be trying to influence a decision to be taken by ofifcers under their proper delegated powers.  What would happen is that whoever is concerned (officer or member) would brief the monitoring officer (usually the chief legal officer / director) who would advise on whether declarations are needed and the monitoring officer would email the member to say what his advice is.  In the case of a member lobbying an officer and not saying that a mistress would benefit, I have to laugh at how the email would be worded to suggest that someone thinks there is a mistress involved if the member is high profile and married ...  and if there is no actual official requirement for a declaration anway ...

Where it is an officer decision and the member is not declaring a prejudicial / pecuniary interest and if no-one raised it with the monitoring officer at the time or soon after, and if there is no clear evidence that a declarable interest (ie. close relationship) existed, I don't see how Boris can be found in breach.  It is effectively unsubstantiated tittle tattle ...

It seems to me that the American former model and pole-dancing (ahem) "entrepreneur", has in the past bragged about her relationship with Boris and the people making these claims are not her friends and its all now hearsay with no hard written evidence.  None of this would stand up in a proper legal hearing ... and Boris definitely has the resources to take the lot straight to a High Court to enforce proper procedures about what "evidence" is relevant and what is not (eg. hearsay by so-called friends or acquaintances from the long past who have no actual written records  that can be proven to be originals written by the relevant people ...).

Even if Boris was himself making a decision, such as letting someone attend a trip, then if that person pays their own way and if there is no actual contract being signed (ie. its just a trip allowing someone to meet or talk to other people etc), this is not actually a "prejudicial or Pecuniary" interest as the trip itself is not involving payment to Boris or his close friend etc.

I don't think Boris would ever have been silly enough to himself decide to give a grant to anyone if the beneficiary was a close friend or relative as he would have known that that would have needed a declaration and by law he must exclude himself from that prejudicial / pecuniary decision. If he breached this, it's a criminal offence ... He obviously did not do this, so the whole story is just a really bad stir by Labourites and other Boris opponents ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 20, 2019, 08:50:48 AM
Three-and-a-half years, two extensions, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, Death of 1 MP   countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement, 66 million Brits losing the will to live and we’re still at square one.
Oh well several more years to come yet with the trade deal with the eu..

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 20, 2019, 11:32:41 AM
Three-and-a-half years, two extensions, seven defections, 21 deselections, three prime ministers, Death of 1 MP   countless amendments, two prorogations, one Supreme Court judgement, 66 million Brits losing the will to live and we’re still at square one.
Oh well several more years to come yet with the trade deal with the eu..

Leaving the MP's death at the hands of a nutcase to one side (though I think Oliver Letwin needs a bodyguard from now on ...), it's all the fault of remoaners who have fought to prevent the result of the 2016 referendum being implemented in order to stop Brexit. Most remoaners are disgraceful liars pretending they want delays to help get a better deal but really they think any delay will help lead to a remain position.

In local government, it is an established principle that once a decision is taken that all opponents should stop trying to debate the decision and should help to implement the decision. Council constitutions are written to prevent constant turmoil over the same argument.  Of course, there are always political parties that carry on their campaigns outside the debating chamber.  Normally, however, decisions get taken by a party or coalition with a clear majority so that the council stays relatively calm and stable on key decisions.

The real scandal is that Parliament is failing to implement the decision taken by the public. What was the point of the referendum if not to pass the key decision to the public?
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 21, 2019, 08:28:56 AM
So following Saturdays defeat, BoJo is going for another vote today! Keep voting until he gets the answer he wants - quite ironic that!!


Leaving the MP's death at the hands of a nutcase to one side (though I think Oliver Letwin needs a bodyguard from now on ...),


Mmmm, the only MP's I saw needing police protection were Rees-Mogg and Leadsom...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 21, 2019, 09:41:38 AM
That was due to a particular mob at the time.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 22, 2019, 13:23:24 PM
So following Saturdays defeat, BoJo is going for another vote today! Keep voting until he gets the answer he wants - quite ironic that!!


Leaving the MP's death at the hands of a nutcase to one side (though I think Oliver Letwin needs a bodyguard from now on ...),


Mmmm, the only MP's I saw needing police protection were Rees-Mogg and Leadsom...

And Jess Phiilips
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on October 23, 2019, 17:58:36 PM
I find it quite ignorant of some people being called "Remoaners" who wish to stay within the union. I appreciate. and have sat through so many meetings within business to understand the totally different views of opinion of the electorate.
I am sure the EEC, that was formed so many years ago, and lived and thrived can be so belittled by single minded persons.
Everyone has a voice and of course, although not happy , would of course go with the  vote of the populous. However, i would not go along with the ignorance of some people that, have a vested interest in our future should be called remoaners.....amongst other things. Eveyone has a voice, and every voice should be heard. and whatever the outcome, acknowledge the result before labeling the others as some type of pooh on ones shoe
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 24, 2019, 08:13:40 AM

I am sure the EEC, that was formed so many years ago, and lived and thrived can be so belittled by single minded persons.

The EEC no longer exists Dorian. It was incorporated into the EU in the early 90's

Everyone has a voice and of course, although not happy , would of course go with the  vote of the populous.

You're right Dorian, however it is clear that a significant number of people are not happy they lost the referendum vote so wish to frustrate it. Of course they don't admit it and disguise their actions as 'more democracy' and 'people didn't vote to be poorer' etc.

and whatever the outcome, acknowledge the result before labeling the others as some type of pooh on ones shoe

I think this is the problem, a great number of people do not acknowledge the result of the referendum.

I voted remain, I lost, and that's that. In a democracy you go with the majority. I think in hindsight it was a mistake to go with a simple majority, but we are where we are.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 24, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
I find it quite ignorant of some people being called "Remoaners" who wish to stay within the union. I appreciate. and have sat through so many meetings within business to understand the totally different views of opinion of the electorate.
I am sure the EEC, that was formed so many years ago, and lived and thrived can be so belittled by single minded persons.
Everyone has a voice and of course, although not happy , would of course go with the  vote of the populous. However, i would not go along with the ignorance of some people that, have a vested interest in our future should be called remoaners.....amongst other things. Eveyone has a voice, and every voice should be heard. and whatever the outcome, acknowledge the result before labeling the others as some type of pooh on ones shoe

I know what you mean Dorian, Those who voted leave (not all mind you) have got angry borne through frustration. I'm not sure what they expected to happen. I could see before the vote, and I'm no brain of Britain, that leaving the EU wasn't going to be a swift and easy thing to achieve. I said at the time it could take up to 5 years. Looks like my prediction is proving about correct.

Time and time again you see angry leavers who have become quite arrogant with their views 'brexit means brexit' and 'just leave'. If only it were that simple! They haven't thought it through. You see them in the audience on programs like news night with faces like thunder scowling at anyone with different views to their own. You just know by their demeanor that they are bullies.

Then you have the ones that threaten anyone who they see opposes the advancement of leaving. You only have to read readers comments on line to see the amount of abuse. "Burcow should be strung up and jailed" "Letwin is a traitorous bast@rd who should be hung" etc etc. And that's just the mild comments.

They probably don't realise these two are conservative MP's who they probably voted for at the last GE. I'm not tarring every leaver with the same brush but there are a lot of ignorant (un-informed) people who voted leave three and a half years ago.

I'm pretty thick skinned so people who call me a remoaner or worse just make me laugh. I accept the result but just want us to have the best options / deals once we do leave. A soft brexit if you like. No one voted for any particular brexit. They may have thought they did. But like I say un-informed..or perhaps mis-informed.

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 24, 2019, 19:26:54 PM
Fingers crossed for an election on 12 December, as proposed by Boris  ...   We do need one to resolve the problem of disgusting remoaners in parliament failing to honour the result of the referendum and trying to block any progress towards Brexit.

Having campaigned hard to support the Conservatives in Wimbledon as a Young Conservative in the 90s at every election, including local elections, and again for a few years back in Westbury between 1999-2005 (when I left the party in total disgust at the vile and horrible behaviour of some local Conservative Councillors who kept making false allegations about me based on their own lies and muddles and the failure of the high command to deal with the liars, backstabbers and smear campaigners ...), I am familiar with campaigning in all seasons.

Frankly, no-one in their right mind would campaign by choice in November / early December because the evenings will be too dark to do canvassing or deliver leaflets (people hate leaflets arriving after dark).  I assume that someone has at last told Tory HQ that canvassing folks at home is a waste of time and actually it  is usually counter-productive as all sorts of folk are just so confused that they will ask endless questions and will never be happy and will decide not to vote for anyone who wants to walk to the next home within 20 minutes ...

Actually, the Tories volunteers are so elderly and thin on the ground now that I rather doubt if they will even get many leaflets delivered anyway and certainly not during dark evenings.

Maybe someone has worked out that one mailshot in time for postal voters and a lot of campaigning via social media will do the trick ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 25, 2019, 15:45:01 PM

Fingers crossed for an election on 12 December, as proposed by Boris  ...   We do need one to resolve the problem of disgusting remoaners in parliament failing to honour the result of the referendum and trying to block any progress towards Brexit.




Going by BoJo's record of getting what he wants, that ain't going to happen. Nothing he has said he would do or will make happen actually has. He's got to be now officially the worst PM this country has ever had !

Still, his puppeteers are ready with the scissors when they have to cut his strings.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 25, 2019, 21:37:51 PM
BoJo has been PM for less than 100 days and has taken on almost unprecedented difficulties left behind by that totally incompetent and inept PM May. I agree that Boris comes across as a bit of a personal shambles but he is very competent at putting teams together around him who get tricky things done in a way that show over time that he does possess genius that few others have.  I think he needs a year to show that his successes will far and away make up for or outshine his failures.

I've worked for a few characters like him.  In the commercial world, these sort of people break the rules but seem to dodge or extricate themselves quickly from real trouble one way or another and they leave a bit a of a mess from time to time, which competent and highly paid people with less flair have to clear up but their sheer charm and character pulls people in and magic happens in a way that does not happen when boring charmless though quite bright ordinary folks try to do the same things.

I made a close friend during my first degree course in Bristol who Boris reminds me of very much. I introduced him to my local friends and took him to all sorts of parties. He was a big hit with the ladies and several times I was told about the outrageous things he did with young ladies who (like me) had never known anyone so audacious and confident ....  He was thrown out of his first job as a graduate investment surveyor with a first class major firm in London whilst I was doing fine as a Graduate surveyor with a top 3 firm in London. His parents were wealthy but he had a bad habit of running out of money and borrowing from me ... and taking me to places in London I would never have found otherwise like strip bars in areas around the City. He then worked for a really seedy small property agency in Shoreditch and when the owner died, James found himself without a job again but in a position (with all the contacts he needed) to set up in his own right and call his one man band Stirling Ackroyd. In reality, he took over the business of his now dead boss by getting all the clients to come to him and changing the "For Sale" or "To Let" signs with new name stickers.

To cut a long story short, James asked me several times to join in with him and I refused.  Ten years later, he had turned his scruffy and seedy property agency business into a multi-million pound business with multiple offices around the City-fringes and he owned a half share in his own separate property investment and development business (with his brother-in-law) which itself was worth tens of millions.

In the late 90s, James asked me to join his agency firm to run the property management team and tidy up a few problems. I agreed and was amazed at the utter mess everything was in and the terrible illegal things going on like clients money in client bank accounts suddenly disappearing sometimes into the firms' own bank account, especially when he was buying some large property in his own name .....   (I later realised that the "clients" were actually him anyway using proxies via off-shore companies including one bizarre company based in Cuba which had a rep whose office was based in his briefcase...).  Anyway, I completed my task (straightening up the management department) and decided to leave as I felt that he had been lucky but would go down with a huge bang probably for fraud or worse and I wanted not to be sucked into it ...

Three years ago he died as a hugely rich man. I kept away from him but followed his story online as he became a national TV character for several years (he was the surveyor in a series called Hot Property) and then got disqualified by the RICS and then somehow he got his qualifications back from the RICS (probably paid someone off or arranged for someone to sleep with someone truly amazing ... )

Here is a tribute to James written by an old school friend of his:  http://www.blundells.org/obclub/obclub/obituaries/goff_james.htm (http://www.blundells.org/obclub/obclub/obituaries/goff_james.htm)

His agency business, Stirling Ackroyd, was sold for millions by his family to another London resi + commercial estate agency. His investment / development company owns and runs bars, clubs and restaurants in the now uber cool areas of Shoreditch and is still expanding around London via his son and brother-in-law ...

I have written all this to demonstrate that people like Boris exist and they make huge impressions on people and they manage to get through life with ups and downs but with overall amazing results. I have also worked for other massively wealthy people who are amazing characters in their own right and who tend to win all their major fights when most people looking on write them off.

For example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whittaker_(businessman) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Whittaker_(businessman))

He asked me to move from London to his HQ in Manchester in 1991. I turned that down and a few years later he finally won a long-running and bitter hostile takeover of the Manchester Ship Canal which meant he could develop the huge Trafford Centre and vast tracts of other land for offices etc including the new BBC TV media centre ....

The point is that Boris is one of those people who are really  capable of pulling off great things.  You just have to wait to see what actually happens in the end and make sure you have a plan to deal with the messy bits that happen on the way (like ensure competent people around him deal with details and help to avoid banana skins etc) ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 25, 2019, 23:03:44 PM
WTF Baldy.

That's 10 minutes of my life that I will mever get back !
Title: Labour MPs are wailing, witless inadequates. We need an election / clearout
Post by: baldy on October 27, 2019, 01:13:49 AM
To give a contrast with Boris (and my comments above), something needs to be said about the miserable and poor quality of the Opposition.

Here is a totally brilliant and accurate article in The Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/26/opposition-filled-wailing-witless-inadequates-need-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/26/opposition-filled-wailing-witless-inadequates-need-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)



The Opposition is filled with wailing, witless inadequates. We need an election to sweep them away

"It is generally the case that when the state of the country demands a general election it is because we need a new government. This time it is because we need a new opposition. It is worth spending a moment to examine this unprecedented historical circumstance.

How can it be that while all the opposition parties excoriate the sitting prime minister (even after he has succeeded in the most monumental and supposedly impossible task set before him, the result of which they have approved) they are unanimously opposed to permitting him to be removed from office, at least without impossible conditions? Or, to put it more simply, they are united in their refusal to give the electorate any role in their private game.

Note to all opposition politicians: nobody in the real world now believes (if, indeed they ever did) your excuses about fearing a “no deal” exit, or needing more time to scrutinise a Withdrawal Agreement most of which has already been, in its earlier incarnation, scrutinised to exhaustion. As this column has observed before, the people are not fooled.

But the need to replace the opposition is not just because of the insoluble Brexit stalemate. We have reached a historic milestone of a different order. I cannot recall a time – in nearly half a century of observing British politics – when the quality, professionalism and intellectual performance of opposition MPs has been as grotesquely inadequate as it is now.

The leaders are bad enough. Jeremy Corbyn is an absurd, witless parody of his lifelong role as a Left-wing camp follower. The Liberal Democrats’ fresh new face, Jo Swinson, looks and sounds like the president of a fifth form debating society. And then there is that preposterous buffoon, Ian Blackford, who leads the Scottish Nationalists at Westminster. The notion that any or all of these people could somehow constitute a plausible “unity government” in the event of Boris Johnson being removed without an election is ludicrous. But worse than the leaders are those new-ish backbenchers most of whose performances would be an embarrassment to a local council.

I take it as a personal affront, as a political journalist who happens to be female, when I have to listen to a Greek chorus of keening, carping Labour women address the House (always from pre-scripted notes) with that suppressed histrionic sob which now seems to be mandatory. I wonder if the stoical suffragettes who were jailed and tortured for the cause of female suffrage ever imagined this spectacle as the outcome. The backbenches of the Commons which were once inhabited by people who could, at least, talk like grown-ups are now filled with mediocre make-weights who treat the great questions of national life as a soap opera.

Dissertations could be written on why this is so. Has our decades-long membership of the EU so degraded the importance and esteem of Parliament that it can no longer attract individuals of real merit? Has life as a professional politician become too vulnerable to vitriol and suspicion to be worth the risk? Who knows? All that can be said for sure is that this is a downward spiral that will be self-reinforcing. The more stupid and inadequate MPs appear, the fewer people of talent will want to join them. So Parliament – the integrity of which its members are supposedly determined to defend to the death – will have downgraded itself to the point where no one cares what is said there.

But let’s return to the urgent matter in hand. It is Brexit that makes the election of a new opposition immediately imperative. The delay and endless uncertainty which the Remain alliance is inflicting on the country is doing what may be irreparable damage to the prospects of small businesses (on which the dynamism of the British economy depends) and is threatening to wreck the lives of their owners.

But the little battalions of entrepreneurs and their families who are being treated with such disdain by the Westminster cabal are just the first and most visible front line being materially damaged in this war of attrition. The prospect of a party being held hostage in office unable to enact laws or pass a Budget, thereby rendering the processes of government unaccountable to the electorate, is so outrageous that it is difficult to believe any democratically elected politician could espouse it.

But perhaps this sort of thinking is out of date. The EU mindset – which despises volatile democratic nation states – may finally have subverted our own national consciousness. There is no reason now why the political class should not feel free to ignore the ignorant masses and their parochial concerns. What we learned in the last century was that self-government is too dangerous. Europe and its member states must be run by an enlightened class of philosopher kings who will ensure that its populations never again make the sort of terrible choices that they made in the past.

That, of course, brings us to the most prized testament of the Remain religion. It was the uneducated mob who voted Leave, they snigger. The great majority of university graduates wanted to remain in the EU – and most of them still do. This is certainly true. But has it occurred to no one in that smug, self-regarding Remain camp that the reason for this preference might have been self-serving? That people with academic qualifications are far more likely to benefit personally from EU membership?

For lawyers and their professional associates, for example, the EU and its monumental legal apparatus are a goldmine of opportunity. Most large legal practices now have whole departments dedicated to European law. Arts and heritage bodies, and the public relations organisations which serve them, benefit directly from EU largesse as do academic and scientific research. A lot of those educated Remain voters had a stake in this which was less to do with Enlightenment than with enlightened self-interest. That is what their less fortunate countrymen suspect – and why their anger, if they are not soon given a voice in this, will be something to behold."
Title: Boris Johnson opens door to deal with LibDems and SNP for December 9 election
Post by: baldy on October 27, 2019, 13:44:52 PM
Yes....


Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/27/bid-libdems-snp-december-9-election-rejected-stunt-tories-labour/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/27/bid-libdems-snp-december-9-election-rejected-stunt-tories-labour/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)


Boris Johnson has opened the door to a deal with the LibDems and SNP to hold a general election in December.


A Number 10 source said the Prime Minister was prepared to “look at all options” including a LibDem and SNP plan for an election on December 9 if Labour continued to resist his demands for an election on December 12.
His move came as senior Labour frontbenchers maintained they would only back an election once the EU had clarified the latest Brexit extension date and Mr Johnson had taken the “last vestiges” of a no deal Brexit off the table.
On Monday Mr Johnson will attempt to get the necessary two-thirds majority in the Commons to secure the election on December 12 under the fixed term parliament act.
However, in a move that circumvents Labour’s indecision over whether to back it, the Lib Dems and SNP are offering an easier route, with a bill for an election on December 9 requiring only a simple majority in the Commons.
Chuka Umunna, who joined the LibDems after leaving Labour, said the LibDems had offered a general election because it looked "highly unlikely" that a second referendum could be secured under the current numbers.
Speaking on Sky News’ Sophy Ridge on Sunday, he said the proposal would take no deal off the table, fix the date of the election and refer Brexit “back to the people to end the deadlock.”
Nicky Morgan, the Culture Secretary, and Jame Cleverly, the Tory chairman, as well as Labour initially branded it a stunt but a Number 10 source later refused to rule it out if its motion on Monday was defeated.
The source said: “Tomorrow MPs will vote on an election on 12 December so we can get a new Parliament. If Labour oppose being held to account by the people yet again, then we will look at all options to get Brexit done including ideas similar to that proposed by other opposition parties.”
“Jeremy Corbyn and MPs’ refusal to deliver Brexit is damaging our democracy and causing harm for millions of businesses. Leaving this Parliament in place means not just three months more of pointless delay, but potentially fruther  extensions and delay after that.
“We can’t allow parliament to waste 2020 the way it has wasted 2019 – the country wants Brexit done so we can move on and focus the public’s priorities.”
It is understood the Government could table its own Bill, with backing from the LibDems and SNP, seeking an election in December but without his Brexit deal with the EU having been passed by Parliament.
Ms Morgan, also speaking on Sky News, criticised the proposal but also left the door open by saying the Government would "have to see in what context it comes."
She said: "What is different about the offer, or stunt I might say, by the SNP and Lib Dems is they have obviously made it clear that they have no intention of wanting Brexit to be done, no intention of wanting the Withdrawal Bill.
"They are saying, 'Go for an election'. It may well be that an election is going to happen. If the SNP and Lib Dems want an election then they have a chance to vote for one as quickly as tomorrow when the Government's motion is voted on. We will see if they are in our lobby or not."
The Cabinet minister said, despite being only four days away and the EU readying an extension, that the Brexit deadline remained October 31. "The default leaving date is still this Thursday and that should focus minds," she said.
Asked why the Prime Minister wanted an election after winning support at second reading for his Brexit deal, Mrs Morgan said: "There has to be a deadline for these things.
"That's why we are saying that, until November 6, which is the day Parliament has to be dissolved for a December 12 election, which is really the last practical day before the end of the year to hold an election, (MPs can continue to debate the Bill).
"Frankly, I think MPs who want to get the Bill through, who want to get Brexit done...I think it is important for the sake of the country that we bring this uncertainty to an end."
The Secretary of State denied that Mr Johnson could push for a no-deal Brexit if he wins a majority at the next election. She said he "got this deal, he wants this deal".
"I don't think that's the Prime Minister's intention at all," said the former Remain campaigner. "He would not have put such a huge amount of personal effort and put the whole Government machine to negotiating this deal with the EU. He got this deal, he wants this deal."
Mr Ashworth said Labour would "have to consider" a general election if the EU offered an extension to the UK's leaving date until January.
Condemning the Lib Dem and SNP proposal as an “opportunistic stunt,” he said: "It's entirely ridiculous. It would need cross-party support to get through the House of Commons procedures and then it would be subject to all kinds of amendments, particularly when it gets into the House of Lords. It's just a stunt so the Lib Dems can get on the telly today."
He added: "We have to wait and see what the European Union clarify about an extension date and if they give us that extension until January then we will have to consider it but at the moment we don't have that clarification and we cannot support Boris Johnson's plans until we've got an absolute reassurance that no deal is off the table."
Philip Hammond, the former chancellor who had the Conservative whip withdrawn after rebelling over a no deal Brexit, said he would support neither Mr Johnson’s nor the LibDems proposal for an election.
He also urged the Government to “stop throwing tantrums” and show it could be “grown up.”
He said: "This is not the time to be holding a general election. It's a time for cool heads and grown-up government. Parliament has indicated clearly that it is willing to support this deal. The Prime Minister said he wants a deal. These deadlines - October 31 - are meaningless.
"The key thing now is to get the deal properly scrutinised in Parliament. That doesn't mean delaying it by months, it means giving Parliament a few days, a couple of weeks, to scrutinise the Bill, amend it if necessary and then we can make progress.
"The Government should stop making threats, stop throwing tantrums, and get on with the grown-up business of doing its business. Just because it can't get exactly what it wants doesn't mean it should stop working."
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 27, 2019, 18:18:40 PM
A half competent opposition would have demolished the incompetent and un-charismatic MAY in 2017

Another car crash interview by Abbott on the Andrew Marr show, can't believe she's allowed to talk to journalists. She'd be out of her depth talking to pre-school children.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 27, 2019, 20:27:53 PM
BREXIT MAKING BRITAIN ENGLAND AGAIN


The Break Up Of Britain
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 28, 2019, 04:17:27 AM
Maxi

Do you mean Little England?

If so, it's not true as the whole aim of BREXIT is to make the UK more international in its outlook, not least as a major global-trading nation. Some remoaners talk about "Singapore on Thames" and I think they have a point because Singapore does trade on its own terms way above its own weight and in many ways this is a result of the British running it in the past ...

In reality we are going to get Global Britain ....

... and I reckon the chances of BREXIT with a deal have just shot up due to the LibDems and SNP now together saying they will put down a proposal for a General Election overriding the Fixed Term Parliament Act meaning that only a simple majority would succeed.

I think the Tories misunderstood the terms of the proposal yesterday initially and that they will today or tomorrow agree to the proposal which includes taking no deal off the table given that Boris has a deal with the EU now.

Obviously, at the General Election on 9th December, the Tories, LibDems and SNP will now hammer Labour who have become a total mess while trying to sit on the fence and face both ways on BREXIT.

Stand by for the creation of the Little Labour Party by Christmas - it will be reduced to less than 200 MPs and Corbyn will then be removed as Leader .... meaning Labour will get a new leader (probably another Marxist moron) soon ....
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 28, 2019, 07:34:06 AM
Boris will look very foolish if he doesn't accept the Lib Dem/ SNP proposal. If he is seen as trying to wriggle out of a GE for the sake of 3 days he will look no better than JC.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 28, 2019, 09:13:48 AM
Well I suppose an election will allow the public to show how they really feel at this moment about the balls up Boris has made over Brexit.

Could turn out like Baldy suggests or it could actually go the complete opposite with people so fed up with the current government that BoJo could actually lose his seat! Has a sitting PM ever lost his seat before? I don't think so. That could be another first for BoJo.

It could be the revival of the Lib/Dems. The populous might want another referendum and that's the only way they're going to get it.

I agree that Labour are probably sunk. That happened as soon as Corbyn became leader. (I still reckon the Tories put him there)

It's another gamble, another roll of the dice, but one that needs to be done. May rolled it and wished she hadn't. BoJo doesn't have any choice.


Oh, and by the way. The term 'get Brexit done' is the most inaccurate statement ever. This deal is just the 'divorce' deal. The real negotiations won't start until afterwards and will take possibly decades to achieve!

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 28, 2019, 09:34:06 AM
I think BoJo is an extremely capable campaigner, not least because he can handle TV interviews well (certainly better than Corbyn) but also because he has extremely clever people advising him on tactics such as use of social media and telephone call centres as well as the points to make in brief mailshot leaflets. I imagine he will have huge donations lined up by wealthy friends ...   

I think Boris will win big in a GE so that the Tories have a clear majority to push through any legislation they want after the GE.  I think the LibDems and SNP know this but have realised that they may as well get their own numbers up while Labour is saddled with a useless leader and then go into moan and groan overdrive about wanting to go back into the EU  and/or Scottish Independence ..... Their recruitment of more supporters will be helped by the existence of a stronger Tory Party Government ... hence why the LibDems and SNP seem to be proposing a GE that actually will help the Tories in all the current circumstances (obviously they know it will help their own parties big time too).

I thought the most inaccurate slogan of recent times was "Strong and Stable". In reality, we all know it was actually a case of the Maybot being inept, incompetent, weak and wobbly ...

It is broadly accepted that history books will soon describe the Maybot era (and "Maybotism") as the definition of political incompetence and ineptitude by the worst UK PM in modern times.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 28, 2019, 10:09:59 AM

I think BoJo is an extremely capable campaigner, not least because he can handle TV interviews well


If you mean he's a bloody good liar then yes!


 but also because he has extremely clever people advising him on tactics such as use of social media and telephone call centres as well as the points to make in brief mailshot leaflets.


You mean his puppeteers

 I imagine he will have huge donations lined up by wealthy friends ...   



Who will no doubt break the spending rules again and get away with it by paying a measly fine afterwards when the damage has been done
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 28, 2019, 11:41:15 AM
JC is a good speaker in front of a friendly audience at a rally, but struggles when pressed by seasoned interviewers. 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 28, 2019, 13:47:10 PM
Can't see Corbyn's communist party voting for an election any time soon as the terrorist-supporting Marxist moron, Corbyn, will probably demand a delay so he can go to Syria for the funeral of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi !
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 28, 2019, 18:19:04 PM
To Replace the 700 plus trade agreements that we already enjoy with the EU,

It would take 13 years at the rate of 1 a week

and 58 Years at the rate 1 a month

That is why Rees Mogg says it will be at least 50 years before we see any benefits to Brexit.

Brexit is that crazy
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 28, 2019, 18:33:38 PM
WTF?

WTO terms are fine until trade deals are done (if needed).

Obviously, any Government led by someone with any sane mind and commercial sense would concentrate first on the biggest and those likely to be agreed relatively quickly.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Pete on October 28, 2019, 19:12:37 PM
The Break Up Of Britain

Really? there is only one party who are actively seeking to break up the Union, and that is the SNP.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 28, 2019, 19:36:17 PM
Yeah well the SNP want independence so that they can rejoin the EU. If Uk wasn’t leaving they might not. Scotland voted to remain in the EU

As did Northern Ireland. Now they face a border between England in the Irish Sea ( if that’s even possible). What a great way to endear them to the UK. Won’t be long before they want independence and step in Eire.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 29, 2019, 08:12:59 AM
Yeah well the SNP want independence so that they can rejoin the EU. If Uk wasn’t leaving they might not. Scotland voted to remain in the EU


SNP have wanted independence for years, even after they lost the last referendum they campaigned for another vote. Jimmy Crankie just wants Independence full stop.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 29, 2019, 08:44:14 AM
Yeah well the SNP want independence so that they can rejoin the EU. If Uk wasn’t leaving they might not. Scotland voted to remain in the EU


SNP have wanted independence for years, even after they lost the last referendum they campaigned for another vote. Jimmy Crankie just wants Independence full stop.

That's true. However the opinion polls in Scotland have showed an increase of people wanting independence since the EU referendum result.

I personally think Jimmy Crankie is a nasty sh1t stirring piece of right wing trash. I also believe most people in Scotland don't want a breakup of the union but to get what they really want they may have to.

It will be a very sad day for Great Britain if that ever happens.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 29, 2019, 11:21:11 AM
You would have though looking at the Brexit mess Jimmy Crankie would have had 2nd thoughts. Any divorce from the UK with lets say a 52 / 48 result will lead to exactly the same issues
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 29, 2019, 12:05:20 PM
Looks like JC will now back a GE saying he can't wait. A bit of a U Turn because his party abstained last night. I suspect Labour will agree the one line motion but then frustrate the process with amendments.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 29, 2019, 13:56:07 PM
Wow.

Brenda from Bristol will burst a blood vessel!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 29, 2019, 20:44:45 PM
So .... a General Election will happen on Thursday 12 December !

I really feel like Christmas has come early.

I normally ignore Christmas stuff until Christmas eve (except for sending cards), but this year I am expecting presents on 13 December in the GE results, such as getting rid of the following awful MPs:
Anna Soubrey
Amber Rudd
etc

I might even decorate my flat on election day to prepare for the GE Results and celebrations next day...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: DORIAN on October 30, 2019, 10:06:37 AM
There are so many people out there who are are so dissatisfied with Politicians..Full Stop, that i would not mind betting that the so called Big two parties could yet again be on a non outright majority, the minor parties will gain seats as many will vote for them as they appear to be untarnished by the current paries, who cannot execute the vote of the nation
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Shizzy on October 30, 2019, 14:47:25 PM
Dorian I think you are right. I predict another hung Parliament.

In any case it doesn't matter who wins, as it is clear that the losers can just refuse to accept the result and demand a re-run until you get the result you want. After all you can't have too much democracy they say.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Michael on October 30, 2019, 16:08:30 PM

In any case it doesn't matter who wins, as it is clear that the losers can just refuse to accept the result and demand a re-run until you get the result you want. After all you can't have too much democracy they say.
It seems that you've not been listening to JC, election, negotiation, deal, put it to the people. Labour Party policy has been the same since 2017, and reaffirmed at their 2019 conference.
The media have not been able to understand LP policy and have put all sorts of spin on it, but really it's quite simple, if your a leaver vote Labour, if your a remainer vote Labour, and if you respect the views of all voters vote Labour.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 30, 2019, 16:22:43 PM


In any case it doesn't matter who wins, as it is clear that the losers can just refuse to accept the result and demand a re-run until you get the result you want. After all you can't have too much democracy they say.

Worked for BoJo  [app]
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 30, 2019, 18:16:01 PM
Brexit deal means ‘£70bn hit to UK by 2029'

Boris Johnson's Brexit deal will leave the UK £70bn worse off than if it had remained in the EU, a study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) has found.
It concluded that GDP would be 3.5% lower in 10 years' time under the deal.
The independent forecaster's outlook is one of the first assessments of how the economy will fare under the new deal.
But the Treasury said it plans on a 'more ambitious' agreement with the EU than 'NIESR is basing its findings on'.
A spokesman said: "We are aiming to negotiate a comprehensive free trade agreement with the European Union, which is more ambitious than the standard free trade deal that NIESR has based its findings on."
NIESR said approval of the prime minister's deal "would reduce the risk of a disorderly outcome, but eliminate the possibility of a closer trading relationship with the EU".
Despite the agreement between the EU and the UK removing uncertainty, customs and regulatory barriers would "hinder goods and services trade with the continent leaving all regions of the United Kingdom worse off than they would be if the UK stayed in the EU," NIESR said.
"We estimate that, in the long run, the economy would be 3.5% smaller with the deal compared to continued EU membership," it added.
The report also found the proposed free trade deal with the EU was slightly worse for the economy than Theresa May's deal of last year.
Her deal would have reduced the size of the economy by 3% over the same period, NIESR said.
Founded in 1938, NIESR has no party political ties and is the UK's oldest independent economic research institute.
A year ago, it conducted a study commissioned by the People's Vote which said GDP would be 3.9% lower by 2030.
Earlier this month, Bank of England governor Mark Carney welcomed the new Brexit deal, saying it was a "net economic positive" as it "takes away the tail risk of a disorderly Brexit".
However, the governor said that the "different" future relationship negotiated with the EU meant it "remains to be seen" if overall the deal would be as positive for the UK economy as the deal put forward by Mr Johnson's predecessor Mrs May.
Chancellor Sajid Javid has refused to recalculate Treasury assessments on the impact of the government's Brexit deal, saying it is "self-evidently in our economic interest".
Slowing demand
NIESR's study modelled different Brexit scenarios against a baseline of the UK staying in the EU.
In the case of a no-deal Brexit, it said, the economy would shrink by 5.6%.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036)

Almost the equivalent of relegation of the British economy from the premiership to the championship

Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 30, 2019, 19:35:41 PM
This is a deeply misleading set of claims.

First of all, the prediction is based on a false model of the economy because the Tories plan a better free trade deal with the EU than the model assumes which means that actually our overall rate of growth may well be better over the next 10 years than the model assumes.

Secondly, you need to be clear that the economy will continue to grow regardless of Brexit. The 3.5% mentioned is based on the larger economy that would exist in 10 years time. In effect, the prediction is about a slightly smaller rate of growth of the economy and over 10 years the slightly smaller growth would accumulate.

Thirdly, it is important not to forget that the reason Brexiteers want Brexit is about much more than our economy, important though that is.

Fourthly, it is difficult to predict exactly what will happen with our economy but it stands to reason that we will do well to reduce our attachment to a trading block that is, in relative terms, growing much more slowly than other parts of the world.

As the EU is growing far more slowly than other major economic blocks, it is obviously a good idea to attach our economy far more to faster growing parts of the world, not least Asia which is storming ahead, but also the USA which is in its own right storming ahead of the EU (and actually wants to do a free trade deal with us to our mutual advantage). 
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Maxi on October 30, 2019, 20:47:59 PM
Does anyone know of an economic report by economic experts which tells us the benefits of Brexit, to the economy, because I am still looking and cant find it.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 30, 2019, 22:31:36 PM
I doubt if any such report is available for public use.  I imagine all sorts of reports have been written for private clients (even PLC banks) who have paid for it.

When I was considering joining UKIP 4 years ago, I asked UKIP to check if there was any such report and, after about 3 months, I was told that there is no such report.

I think one of the issues is that any such forecast would be something of an unreliable guess because so many factors and variables would have to be predicted.

It is simply typical that large corporate organisations / businesses who are prepared to support Project Fear would help pay for reports undermining Brexit and ensure it is published widely as part of a campaign to influence the debate ...
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on October 31, 2019, 08:40:54 AM

I doubt if any such report is available for public use. 



So do I. Probably because they don't exist.


When I was considering joining UKIP 4 years ago, I asked UKIP to check if there was any such report and, after about 3 months, I was told that there is no such report.



Blimey, if UKIP couldn't even make up a report extolling the economic benefits of Brexit it must be really bad !!!
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: baldy on October 31, 2019, 10:03:17 AM
I did not ask for a report by UKIP. I specifically asked for one written by expert economists.
Title: Re: Do we really care about Brexit
Post by: Bob DeBilda on November 13, 2019, 08:30:22 AM

Taken from the 'badger' thread because Dorian got upset..

The Hard Right keep saying 17.2 Million voted  to just leave that is a lie we was promised a good deal and if we don't get it I am one Happy to stay in the EU rather than vote Johnson/Farage.

I don't remember anything on the ballot paper that said "Leave with a good deal but if you don't like the deal feel free to change your mind and remain" Who made this promise to you Jim?

Two options that I recall (it was an awful long time ago) were 1. Remain in EU. 2 Leave the EU If you voted leave then I'm afraid you get what you voted for. Even if Labour win the GE and try and renegotiate it's not going to be any different to the deal agreed now.